Women in Safety

In this episode, Mary Conquest speaks with experienced Safety Director Stephanie Benay, one of Canada’s foremost HSE experts and current Governor of the Board of Canadian Registered Safety Professionals.

Stephanie reflects on her 25-year journey as a female safety professional. She describes what the safety world was like for women a quarter of a century ago and explores how the workplace safety environment has changed over the last few decades.

Despite improvements over time, gender inequality persists within the safety industry, and Stephanie reveals where, how and why these barriers for women are still prevalent.

In this raw interview, Stephanie doesn’t shy away from discussing uncomfortable truths such as female harassment in the workplace. However, her rise to senior leadership is an uplifting story that will inspire safety professionals across all demographics.

Stepanie also shares fantastic safety leadership tips and stresses the importance of change management skills and developing financial acumen. She urges HSE professionals to believe in yourself, have courageous conversations and, most importantly: be curious.

♪ [music] ♪ - [Mary] My name is Mary Conquest. I'm your host for "Safety Labs by Slice," the podcast where we explore the human side of safety to support safety professionals. We move past regulations and reportables to talk about the core skills of safety leadership, empathy, influence, trust, rapport, in other words, the soft skills that help you do the hard stuff.

♪ [music] ♪ Hi there. Welcome to "Safety Labs by Slice." I'd like to start by quoting the American Society for Safety Professionals 2019 report entitled "Women and Safety in the Modern Workplace."

The report concludes that, "Despite improvements over time, gender inequality persists within the safety industry. Women continue to be the vast minority of safety professionals and are even less prevalent in leadership positions where their perspective could have the greatest impact." Our guest today is a woman who has moved through her 25-year career from working in the field up to senior leadership.

I'm going to ask her about the challenges, the opportunities, and what she's learned along the way. We'll also find out what she considers the best book on safety, and I'm willing to bet it's not what you expect. Stephanie Benay has over 20 years of experience as an entrepreneurial, strategic, and visionary business planner. She's considered one of Canada's foremost experts in health and safety, and is the current governor of the Board of Canadian Registered Safety Professionals.

Her specialties include leadership and strategic planning, effective relationships with C-level stakeholders and industry leaders, and safety risk management, program development, and implementation, all with an entrepreneurial mindset. Ms. Benay is currently the director of safety for BC Hydro, a provincial Crown Corporation that generates and delivers electricity to 95% of the population of British Columbia, a province of about 5.2 million people.

Stephanie joins us from Vancouver Island. Welcome.

- [Stephanie] Well, thank you. That was a wonderful introduction. I'm blushing.

- Well, it's all true. It's all true.

- Yeah. Thank you.

- Okay. I'm super excited. So, I'm going to dive right in. What was entering the safety world like for women when you started over 20 years ago?

- Yeah, you know, that's such a great question. I'd say, you know, 25 years ago women in the safety industry and certainly in Canada were a rare site to behold. Certainly, you know, the safety industry in Canada was relatively young 25 years ago too in comparison to other parts of the world.

And so I think that's important context. But entering, A, as a minority in the workplace in the industry, in the safety industry, was certainly something that was very, very prominent. And there were no women in leadership positions in safety anywhere at that time. And so it was challenging.

It was exciting. The opportunity to learn and to think differently was hugely impactful. And at the same time, the risks that we had then were really focused around if you can believe in personal safety, and they still exist to a large part in some of the work that we do.

And so it was challenging in ways that a lot of people probably wouldn't have realized.

- So, what do you think the biggest change for women in safety has been from then until now?

- So, I think, you know, when I entered the field as a young safety professional, yes, you were a young woman working in a male-dominated industry supporting male-dominated industries as a safety professional, and so there was definitely a lack of respect quite often. And that included not just from a job perspective or a role perspective, but also a lack of respect as a woman working in the field.

And that affected your personal safety. And people are always shocked to hear, and I'm certain we can, you know, touch on that in a little bit, but even the most basic things, and I know people will say women in safety are always harping on personal protective equipment, but we couldn't even get gear that were designed for female bodies. I wore men's composite-toe rubber boots up until about five years ago.

And I would take them off at the end of the day with bruises and gashes into the front of my legs because they weren't designed properly and they were hitting my legs in the wrong place. You know, gloves, my hands are smaller. I couldn't find gloves.

I couldn't find coveralls. I mean, it was really quite remarkable. And so we have made some improvements there. You'll see women and organizations taking into consideration that they have not just women in safety, but women in engineering and other roles in organizations that require proper fitting, personal protective equipment. And I certainly think some of the changes in organizations recently, over the recent past around conversations with diversity, equity, and inclusion, and bullying and harassment have made significant changes.

I would say, dare I say, in many organizations, it's still just window dressing. We talk about it, but we don't actually live it. But at least it's a conversation that started and will continue. And so that's probably the biggest change that I've seen over the years.

- Yeah. And it's a long overdue conversation, I would say.

- And not just for women in safety.

- No. Of course, not.

- You know, I mean, certainly DE&I and bullying and harassment affects all genders and people coming from different cultures.

- Can you think of any specific barriers for women who want to enter the safety profession? So, not necessarily challenges once you're in, but barriers to even getting there?

- Yeah. I think certainly with the educational systems and the programs here within Canada, so I'll speak to Canada, and actually, probably in North America, more women are entering the education streams. So that's fantastic. We do have more women entering into trades and often working in a trade is an avenue by which you enter into safety, and that's fantastic.

However, we're not keeping them in the industry. So, interestingly enough, they may get into the educational programs, but the actual barrier is once they're in the system, it's around often they're put into administrative roles and they're not given the same opportunities to move ahead in organizations for a variety of what people say are different reasons.

But generally, they don't progress in their careers as quickly. And often that's a result of some biases that people they're working with or for or within organizations that are existing. And then we can't keep them in the business. And so often that becomes a point of frustration for young professionals. And once they have a choice between perhaps having a family or working on their career, the value is less associated with their role, and so they choose to not come back into the industry.

So, it's frustrating. Good numbers heading into the educational streams. Always opportunity for more women in trades. Lots of good numbers in engineering. You know, a lot of people come into safety via engineering, but we lose them in their 30s, actually.

- Interesting. So, you've spoken to some of the challenges, do you see any opportunities particular to women in the safety profession?

- So, opportunities that would be...maybe I could ask you to clarify that. What are you thinking?

- Really I throw it out to see how you'd like to interpret it, but, you know, challenges versus opportunities. So, we know that there are some things that are difficult. Are there some things that are perhaps easier, or you pointed to some gaps, some gaps that exist in...

- Sure. Yeah. You know, I think that there are a few things that women do exceptionally well. In safety, where I really, really see women succeeding exceptionally is there ability to build relationship and to listen and to solve complex problems. You know, so really taking into account all of the stakeholder feedback and then looking at how can we approach the complexity of this problem and come up with fit-for-purpose solutions.

And I think a lot of people wouldn't say that that's necessarily a female trait, lots of people can solve complex problems, but I think in conjunction with the relationship building and the ability to listen, they become powerhouses. You know, it's like a superpower.

- Yeah. And like any of these discussions, it's not that there are no men who have these same skills, but it's true that women are sort of socialized to listen more than they speak and to prioritize relationship over individual.

- Yeah. But when you take that basic ability and implement something, it becomes a superpower. And I think what's also interesting is that they come with a sense of humility also, especially when they're working in technical realms where they haven't actually got the expertise. So, they have to rely on that other ability to make sure that they clearly understand the issue.

And there's no judgment, there's no bravado that comes with them. They don't, you know, approach the problem as if I already have the solution. It's like, well, what can I learn here? What's different here? What does this look like? And how can we work together collaboratively towards a solution? And I really think it's amazing to watch women, you know, working in safety and how they can come up with these just amazing things.

It's a superpower.

- Has anything surprised you watching young women sort of come up? Is there anything that was unexpected or that you've noted?

- I love the number of women who are coming into safety via engineering. I love that finally as an industry, we've acknowledge and actually, it was a result of COVID, you know, the pandemic, the value and the importance of our public health specialists in the safety realm.

I mean, I just think, you know, that's a phenomenal thing. And it tends to be predominantly female, I think, in Canada in that industry. So, they really showed some...I mean, we always valued them, but now industry saw them step forward. I think the value that has come with the occupational health nursing profession and it really coming to the table now and being incorporated as something that we can use preventatively versus with respect to recovery services or disability management has been great.

And I watch the women that are working in these fields just excel. And I'm excited for that because it really is whole health and safety preventative approach. So, a bit of a different answer I would think, but it's been amazing to watch.

- Yeah. What do you mean by occupational health nurses or nursing?

- Yeah. Well, occupational nursing is, yeah, really, often you would see in large organizations the recovery services aspect of the business will actually have OHNs employed in that field. But they bring such a different viewpoint to not just recovery from workplace injury, but how to prevent workplace injury.

And so, as the injury in its entirety has shifted to focusing more on prevention rather than managing lost time incidents, you've really seen them shine and become part of a comprehensive team in organizations. They've got massive value and it's far beyond disability management. So, they're another arm, like, occupational health and safety is a massive field.

- It is. It is. And I learn more about it every week as I talk to people whose ideas and professions touch it in different ways. So, you touched on this before. Not everyone has children, but you decided to. So, talk to me about the trade-offs and the difficult choices that women have to make throughout their careers, particularly when it comes to parenting.

And I will say for the audience, yes, it's still primarily women who are juggling, especially early childhood care and parenting responsibilities with their careers.

- Sure. You know, I always think it's interesting because it's not necessarily specific to just women and safety, but it's a challenge I think that women as they want to move their career forward and there is a field component, let's say, to the work that they do, that can be a bit of a challenge. So, yes, I have three wonderful children and two bonus daughters, so five total.

And I was a single mother when I went into safety. So, really the interesting challenge there would be how I had to push my career forward and make sure that I was getting the same opportunities as my male counterparts. So, for example, in a lot of organizations, and this happens still to this date, is that as sometimes a woman in working in safety who has a family, opportunities to develop your skills in different environments, like going to the field, like doing a camp rotation, you're not necessarily even considered for.

- There's just an assumption that you can't or that you won't.

- That's right. That you won't. That there's a bias there or an assumption. Most often it's a bias that women belong with their children. That you won't take that opportunity. And certainly, I ran into it in a number of aspects in my own career. I think what's really interesting though is, and the most important thing that I had to learn early is regardless of whether or not you have children, as a female professional who wants to move your career forward, you have to advocate for yourself.

And you have to stand up and say, I want those opportunities. And how I manage my personal life, frankly, is none of your business.

- Yeah.

- Do you know what I mean?

- No one wonders about, oh, well he's, you know...when it comes to a man, "Oh, would he want to do this? You know, he has young kids at home."

- Yeah. Yeah.

- You wouldn't hear that. Or he just got married, he might have kids. You hear it for women, but not for men.

- And that's such a crazy conversation and it still happens. You know, I'll share with you a story that I was with a large oil and gas producer in my career, and my boss actually said to me, I had a teenager who was struggling with some mental health issues. And, you know, we talk a lot more about mental health as we should. And so I had shared this, I had to take some time off, or modify my schedule to work around some family-related issues with my child.

And he actually said to me in one of our one-on-one meetings, "Do you think the fact that you're a working mother has contributed to your child having mental health issues?" And this isn't a long time ago, Mary. This is like just years ago. And I stopped. And, first of all, the inappropriateness of that question was so overwhelming, but I'm sure unlike many people, I'm often shocked when I hear...to this day, when I hear a comment like that, I take a step back and go, "Am I actually hearing that?"

And I come up with the best retort like a day and a half later and usually about 2 a.m. in the morning.

- Oh, yeah. We all do that.

- What is that about? But it's a landmine. It's a landmine question in a large corporate environment in many organizations. And so as a woman, how you answer that when you're faced with such blatant sexism is done quite carefully. Done quite carefully.

- Well, and I imagine you're keenly aware, if this is your boss, of the power imbalance, and it's like, you know, if someone said that to you at a social event, you might feel quite comfortable just calling them out or laughing off or whatever, whereas in a power relationship like that, where this person decides to some degree what opportunities you get in this company, yeah, it's tough to be tactful and stand up for yourself and, you know, balance all those things.

- And that's why I think it's so important to have the conversation around women in safety, and women working in industrial environments, and women in business, because it's how do you handle those conversations? What does that look like? How do you tactfully make your point without limiting your career options when there's a significant power imbalance? And it is.

Who are we kidding? That's the way the world works. And so it's challenging. And I'm formidable, but believe you me, I was stumped in that moment. Everybody who knows me would say, "Oh, Stephanie's formidable. She doesn't hesitate to say what she's thinking."

- Sometimes we're just so shocked by someone's behavior that...

- Yes, as my child says, "I was shook, mom." And I was shook in that moment.

- You were shook.

- Yes.

- Something that you mentioned when we discussed earlier was that you are seeing a lot of women in certain kinds of roles in safety and not in others. So, you were contrasting field roles versus more educational kinds of roles. Can you talk to me about that?

- Yeah. So, it's very common in safety to see women working in training roles or learning and development roles, or often in management roles, but not field-facing roles. And part of that is that bias that's still in existence in organizations. And part of it is real. So, there are some people who make the decision not to take, you know, a field-facing role to build out their skill set that way and choose to build it out another way.

So, we certainly see a lot of female professionals in those spaces. And then often they will move into a management stream because as an individual contributor, yes, they have success, but in a management stream, their ability to manage relationships and to drive outcomes becomes really apparent.

And so you start to see that. And like I said, that same humility they approach the rest of their work with is quite evident. And so as they move into the management roles, they continue to succeed. Where that field-facing, although we do and it did when I was new in the industry, I'm just thinking back because it was a long time ago, often the other women in the roles were medics.

So, you would have female medics that were working out in the field, and that would be just about it on-site. And quite often they were fulfilling both medic and administrative roles. And so interestingly enough, we still have a lot of female medics, of course, we have all genders working as medics. But that was the stream that front-facing, you know, managing large-scale construction, you know, from a safety perspective, large-scale construction projects was not as prevalent in an actual integrated and interactive role, but more administrative.

So, managing the training certifications, managing the paperwork on large-scale industrial projects or training, fit testing.

- So, would you say that that's an opportunity maybe for, like, if there aren't a lot of women, or rather you said that there weren't, maybe there are now women in the field or in field-type positions? Do you think that's something that, you know, a young woman who's considering being a safety professionals should be looking at or...?

- You know, I think any opportunity to get to the field and to actually see how work is planned versus how work is executed is important to understanding, especially if you're developing safety programs that will support or training that will support the field role. The challenge is, and it still remains often that personal safety is...and when I say personal safety, you know, I've often said it is not unusual for a woman who has worked in the field to have been harassed sexually, emotionally, physically to this day.

To this day.

- Sadly, I have no trouble believing that.

- Yeah. And I often, I remember sharing this story. You know, I was a young safety professional and I don't know how many men worry about when you're on a camp job answering the knock at the door at 8:00. I did. Because on more than one occasion, you know, I made the mistake of thinking it was a colleague asking question and, you know, the door was pushed open and I was pushed up against the wall.

You know, and that's really an awful experience that you wouldn't wish on anybody, but it happens. And so, personal safety...in Canada, we started the Women in Occupational Health and Safety Association in 2017. And we had our inaugural event the following year. And I was shocked to hear that that discussion with the young professionals, the young female professionals at the table was still around personal safety and the latest and greatest gadgets that could be used to keep your door firmly shut when you were in hotels and on-camp jobs.

And why would you want to, you know, expose yourself to that, yet at the same time, you're struggling with the balance between how do I get that field experience that will add value to my career progression? It's an interesting challenge and it's incredibly unfortunate.

And yes, the bullying and harassment and the, you know, whistleblower lines in many organizations are working. But for the most part, if you think that 90% of the businesses are small businesses, they don't have that infrastructure. And the whistleblowing, you know, if a young professional would go to their boss, they would be looking for a new job the next day.

They'll get rid of the safety person in a heartbeat. So, it still happens and it's still the discussion 25 years later. It's mindboggling to me.

- Well, at least we're getting it on the air, I guess.

- Yeah. Yeah. And it's crazy, but we have to talk about it. And more importantly, you know, we have to ask, and I really want this to be important. My male colleagues are phenomenal. They're phenomenal. But what we actually need are our brothers in safety to speak up and to hold their gender accountable for their bad behavior.

That needs to happen. You know, we can be vocal until the cows come home, but they really, really need to hold each other accountable and say, that's not cool. It's unacceptable. That's not going to happen again and deal with it.

- Yeah. If you're already, again, sort of perceived as lesser than in some way, then people aren't going to listen to you quite as much as they would listen to a safety equal, right?

- So true. Yeah.

- So, you've kind of answered my next question, which was, is there anything that you wish your male colleagues in safety understood better about women's experiences in this industry?

- Yeah. You know, my experience with WOHSS, which really is a phenomenal organization, especially for young women to join in, because it's the opportunity for them to, A, build a network with other female professionals and male professionals because our brothers in safety, all genders in safety that join us in that platform have the dialogue, we're talking about it.

And then we can have a dialogue around what skills look like, what does that intervention look like in those situations? How can I make sure that I approach the work on my team as a male safety leader and remove biases and approach with an open mind?

Because a lot of people will say, I've never had a problem as a woman in the field, or I've never seen any women have a problem. And I would beg to...call me up, I'll tell you the stories. I'll tell you the stories, they'll curl your hair.

- Well, those are really obvious things too, but there are sometimes small things that, you know, if someone said it to you as a male, you wouldn't think twice, you'd just chug it off. But if they say it to you as a female, it's a little bit more harmful or it feels more harmful because you're already sort of vulnerable in that way.

- Yeah. Well, there's certainly reputational risk that accompanies women working in the business world. One slight, you know, comment can be taken totally inappropriately. I think the flip side too is that we have to build out the skill sets with women to say, listen, that comment landed like this.

Is that how you meant it? So, you have the chance to, A, apologize and backpedal like crazy. And I've made it really clear that, you know, that's not acceptable. Or you say, yeah, that's exactly how I meant it, then we're going to have a different conversation. And so I think for the men that are working in industry and supporting us, the other conversation about women in safety is are you, A, giving them the mentorship and the sponsorship opportunities that you would the other people working on your team?

And so mentorship...and this is twofold. So, in the safety industry, safety's not necessarily seen as, I guess, having as much valuable at the big table. And so a lot of effort in organizations is to put effort into future leadership of their engineering groups, you know, of their construction management groups, you know, and to really look at them as potential future leaders and succession planning in companies.

With the safety professionals, it's not just specific to women, they don't get the same mentorship opportunities. And so in WOHSS, we provide that mentorship opportunity from both men and women working in safety and to men and women working in safety. But then the conversation comes around, what is sponsorship as opposed to mentorship?

And if you're a senior female safety leader, do you have an executive sponsor who's looking out for opportunities for you to advance in an organization? And those are very new conversations in the safety space and recognizing us as business leaders also not confining us to the ranks of being a safety professional.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but for those of us who choose to move forward in their careers, you know, that's hugely valuable.

- And that is exactly where I wanted to go next, which was shifting into talking about career growth, which again, you're answering from the perspective having lived through it as a woman, but a lot of this stuff is gender agnostic, I would say, right? But I wanted to ask you from your history, what skills or choices do you think enabled you to progress to senior leadership in your career?

- Oh, you know, I think when I look at my career, something that innately has helped me is actually a characteristic. I'm hugely curious. I'm hugely curious and probably, and I'm sure I did annoy the hell out of my parents with why? How come?

Why is that? Why is that? Why is that? What does that look like? Can you tell me more? And that is part of what made me successful when I was working in the field, you know, approaching work with that humility, and can you tell me more? What does that look like?

Why do we do it that way? Which most safety people will tell you is a huge skill, but you continue that as you progress in your career. And what I discovered really early on, and this is a point of contention and discussion amongst safety professionals around the world, safety performance isn't improving. We've flatlined in industry. And you'll hear about all these different, you know, well, we should do this type of safety, and we should do behavior-based safety, and we should do HOP, and we should do safety differently.

And regardless of the theory, it really comes down to, are you curious to understand how an organization operates? Because that'll provide you with insights into which lever to pull. And so by lever to pull, I mean, if you're trying to solve a problem in the field at execution base, chances are a decision that impacted the work execution happened long before in supply chain, or in contract management, or in the project planning for the company.

And so for me, advancing my career has been taking that next step to learn about business.

- Yeah. Sort of breaking down the perceived safety silo, and actually, I was going to quote what you had said earlier to me, which was the key to safety leadership is to understand your organization and to get the right tools. And you had said at the time, the way to do that is by understanding how business works.

- That's right. Yes. Because you'll hear safety people...and my team will quote me on this, it's build it in, don't bolt it on. Build it in, don't bolt it on. Well, you can't build it in if you don't understand where to do that. It won't work. It won't work.

Regardless of what new philosophy, it won't work unless you build it in. And so the only way to do that is to understand how the big picture works so that you know where to build it in.

- Yeah, exactly. The connections between decisions and constraints in all departments affect each other because you...

- Yeah. And integrated management systems and understanding, you know, the real value value... At one point, I led the quality group in a large global organization. And quality had that figured out a long time ago. You know, you build things in and you check...you build in the redundancies and then you check to make sure there's no scope creep or any deviation from the plan.

And so it was really if I hadn't had, you know, the quality group, would I have caught onto that so quickly and gone, how does it apply? And the forefathers in safety and quality are quite often, you know, same or similar or interchangeable. The theories are the same, but it's really around if I didn't understand the, you know, contract language and what contracts mean, would I understand how that's going to drive performance in the field and what measures to put in place so I understood how things were working in the field?

So, it's really interesting. That's been the one thing, just being curious about how everything else works and people love to talk about what they do.

- They do. They do.

- All you have to do is ask them.

- Otherwise, I wouldn't have a podcast. I wouldn't have people to talk to.

- Exactly.

- Yeah. I do think curiosity...in fact, I believe I saw BBC article, they have a work-life section and they said, you know, the one superpower in the workplace, and it was curiosity.

- Oh, really? Oh, geez. That's not originally there. I'll have to get something else. I'll have to...

- No, no. It's great.

- [inaudible 00:31:07] - It just means it's such a good idea that more people have noticed it.

- Well, I would love to say it was mine, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't. I haven't got original thought in my head. But you know, it's that same curiosity... I'm thinking back to the question that you asked me about having a family and managing careers and making choices. And when I think about that, if there is one thing, being curious afforded me opportunities for different roles within organizations, which helped moved my career forward.

But make no mistake, Mary, I would not have been able to do what I do if I didn't have a partner who stepped up to the plate and supported me 110% because I did miss parent-teacher interviews, and I did miss playoff games, and I did miss birthdays. And he stepped up and he covered off on many of that just like I did for him when he wasn't there.

And so if I had a partner whose expectation was that I did all that and more, I wouldn't have been able to get ahead the way that I would've. Not with him anyways, he's not married. Oh my God, I'll tell him that later.

- Okay. Shifting a little bit, what is the importance of change management in senior leadership roles?

- So, change management and a good management system is a nice little box that we all talk about. And everybody will say that change management is important. But it really is around the engagement of your stakeholders and bringing them along with you. And as a safety leader and as a support function in most organizations, so, you know, when you're reporting outside of operations, you're supporting the effect of, you know, operational delivery of whatever your company does.

Change management will be what makes you successful or not. It really, really is because if you don't bring an organization along with you, regardless of how brilliant your ideas are, you won't go anywhere because you're not executing the idea. That's the whole point of the integration, you know, the building it in and not bolting it on. And so change management as a senior leader, having those conversations...and, you know, and I had one this morning actually, you know.

I had a peer in the operational group call me up and there was a problem. And I have to listen to the feedback on that issue with no ego attached to the conversation. And so the conversation isn't, "Stephanie, you and your team did this wrong." "Stephanie, you did this wrong." That's not the conversation.

And even if that's said, that's not what I can hear. What I actually have to hear is where is the opportunity to do it differently if it's appropriate the next time? And so it's learning to remove ego so that you can effectively engage and bring the stakeholders along, which is really, really challenging for a senior leader because your ego is part of what gets you there.

- That's a good point.

- Yeah, especially as a female leader. Because you need that ego and that sense of self-confidence that says, yes, I did that, my team did that, I led that initiative. And then with the change management hat, you have to be able to listen and go, "Okay, what are they saying and it's never a personal attack?" It's actually what I often say to our young female professionals when they get feedback is don't take it personally.

Don't take it personally. Now, if it was delivered as an insult, well, that's a different conversation that you have with that person, but there's a way to respond to them.

- Yeah. And I think even if...again, not in the realm of insults, but if someone does say, you know, Stephanie, you got this wrong and is trying to make it a little bit personal, I think it's probably important to understand while you're listening, you're listening for the content of what's behind it. You're listening and that tone tells you not that you actually did it wrong, but this person is upset, right? It tells you more about urgency and about the importance of the issue at hand, not about you.

- Yes. And you can't control their reaction, but you can control your reaction. And so by not letting your ego attached, you don't let yourself go into your lizard brain and react with emotion, which is an interesting challenge for safety people because safety... I'm not meaning to point at you.

I'm being emphatic by the way. Because safety people are caregivers by nature, and being a caregiver, because you want everybody to go home safely. Like, people in safety live and breathe this every day and it's hard as heck. And so with that comes emotion. You're passionate about it. So the evolution of your career is actually when you still are able to be passionate, but here because you've removed the emotion, but you're understanding it and you're not letting yourself go to that lizard brain place.

Does that make sense?

- It's a lot of things to balance. It's a lot of...

- It's huge. It's a skill.

- Yes. And it's all like a spectrum, right? All these things are useful, it's just the degree to which you use them and in what context, I would think.

- Absolutely. And so if somebody said, oh, Stephanie, how can somebody insult me, or, you know, drop a couple of F-bombs and say something to me, you know, with passion in their anger and how can I not respond appropriately because he or she's being a jerk? That's where the curiosity comes back.

So, the most important skill. Because if you stay in your place of curiosity, why is this happening? Why am I getting such a strong reaction? What are they really trying to tell me? Then you'll be able to negotiate that without ego.

- Excellent.

- Now, let's be honest, I'm not perfect at this. It's a skill that I work on.

- Oh, no, no, no. I actually had that in the back of my mind. Like, I totally agree and I understand the theory of all of this, and I still get it wrong in person sometimes.

- Oh gosh, yeah. If I was to tell you about the conversation I had with my mother the other day, you'd be, "Stephanie, you went right to your lizard brain." And I'd say, "Hell, yes, I did." So, it's not perfect.

- It happens.

- Yeah.

- What do you think is the place of graduate and post-graduate education in career development? You did an MBA, am I right?

- I did. Yeah. Yes, I did.

- Do you feel that, in general, it's worth...it's a significant investment with time and money?

- Yeah. It's a huge investment. And in full transparency, I didn't start my MBA until I was 50. And I think I may have shared this story with you before, Mary, but full disclosure, my son had been accepted to Western University and to the engineering combination, Ivy School of Business program. And I was just so darn excited for him that, you know, you go down for that introduction and I'm looking at him and I'm like, "He's my future leader. Look at that kid. Look at him. Go, I'm so excited."

And then they have the Ivy School of Business and I walk into this grand building and I'm like, "Look at this place and look at all the people that have been here. And isn't that amazing?" And then we went into the big auditorium and I ran all the way down to the bottom to sit in the front row.

- So, curiosity and enthusiasm.

- He was so horrified.

- I'm sure he was.

- What are you doing? And then as the professor, you know, was speaking to the large group of parents and incoming students and asked a few questions, I put on up my hand [inaudible 00:38:55].

- Oh, dear.

- And he was like, oh my God...

- I'm not with her.

- ...you're ruining my life, mother. But what it said to me was I still at the age of 50, I was 49 at the time, wanted to learn. And I wasn't one of those people that said, "Yeah, I know I want to work in safety as a career." I didn't even know it was such a thing, honestly.

I had no idea. And then as my career evolved, I was really, really curious around, how do I find those levers. What are they? And so for me, it was a business education. It wasn't furthering my safety education and my technical safety education.

- And there is huge value there for some people. It really depends on what you want to do. For me, I always say to a safety person, you don't have to go get your MBA. It really depends on what you want to do. But what I would suggest, if you're a certified safety professional and you've had some education, some formal education in safety around management systems, you know, things like that, then learn about something else.

In Canada, take your CRM, you know, your risk management designation, learn about something else that's going to bring other value. And the other opportunity I had is after I had my youngest children and I decided to go back to the workforce, I decided to focus on the training aspect like many women in safety do. And so I took my adult education.

And what I realized is I like talking to people. I love talking about safety. I'm passionate about it. It's exciting for me and it matters. It matters because my father died of an occupational-related illness. And it matters because I've told families that their loved ones aren't coming home. And it's unacceptable to still be having those conversations in 2022 on the basis...on such a large scale that we still are globally.

And so for me, you know, my recommendation is to learn something different that's passionate, like learn more about incident investigation if you want. But when I took my training aspect in the adult education, you know what I did? I went to a conference of the Canadian Association of Professional Speakers. So, I took that training aspect and they take it next level because they teach you of the business around being in front of people, but they're innovative in a way that I hadn't seen before.

So, I went not to a safety conference, but to a professional speaking conference. And I came away with more tools to make myself better. So, learn something different. It doesn't have to be an MBA, but learn something different. Because I guarantee you it's going to... Even if you learn how to write, take a writing course, you want to write a book. It's going to make you better.

And that to me is where the value is. Long story.

- That reminds me of one of my previous guests and I said, you know, "What are the best safety books?" And she said, "Honestly, anything that's not safety related."

- So true.

- And it is for the same reason. And on that note, it's time for me to ask you, what is the book that you refer to as the best book on safety?

- Yeah. I know that you think it's funny, but I always say...

- I think it's great.

- ...the best book on safety was written by Chris Hadfield, a Canadian astronaut, "An Astronaut's Guide to Life." It talks about risk management in a way that's meaningful to the layperson, enjoyable. It talks about risk management. And if you read it, it talks about training for failure, which is a challenging aspect of bringing in safety systems and tools in the workplace because it really is around developing critical thinking skills under dynamic conditions.

So, a lot of people train for competency in organizations, but NASA trains to fail. What are you going to do if something goes sideways? How are we going to fix it? And that dynamic aspect of their program is phenomenal and he details it in that book and you can read it in a day. And I often buy it for executive teams and I say, "Here you go. This is the best safety book out there and let's have a conversation about it."

So, that's my favorite safety book, but can I share with you what the best book for me was as a woman wanting to work in safety and further my career? It came out a couple of years ago and it's actually called, I just have to pull it up, "How Women Rise," and it's by Sally Helgesen and Marshall Goldsmith.

And it details 12 habits that women often do that limit their careers. And when I read that, I shared it with other senior female leaders immediately because I will admit, I have done all 12. I have done all 12. And so it's a phenomenal book for a woman wanting to move ahead.

- That is something that I had been thinking about earlier when we were talking about biases and gender. Sometimes the biases are internal, right? Sometimes it's the way we behave because of things we believe or habits we have that aren't helpful.

- Well, I'll give you a really good example. So, one of the habits is not building out your network. And another habit is relying heavily on your technical competency. And so as a woman in safety, you're always having to prove yourself from a technical competency perspective, especially if you're dealing with people in the field who come from different trade backgrounds.

And then if you move into the office and you're dealing with engineers, there's a technical competency piece to safety that you're always having to justify and it's infuriating, but I'm not going to solve that problem today. But I had become somebody who really relied heavily on saying, you know, in my experience and with my knowledge, this is what I know.

And I was hired by an organization and they had a very complex group to deal with that had extremely poor safety performance. And I focused hard on solving the problem and I forgot to build out the relationships. And that's a very common thing for women to do because surprisingly, even though we do build relationships well, we can forget and rely heavily and get too focused.

So, that was a really, really interesting challenge. And when I read the book, I was like, "Wow, I have done this. This is a good reminder." And the other thing I had done as a female leader moving through the ranks, I gave my team credit all the time, and I forgot to give myself credit as their leader. And it's hard, right?

Because women will say, oh, you know, people will say, oh, she's bragging. No, I did. I led the group and we did that work. That's right. You know, and it's not being a bragger, it's owning my role and my space.

- Statement of fact.

- Yeah, it is. And celebrating. I mean, shine brightly. Shine brightly, girlfriend.

- So, for those who aspire to senior leadership in their careers, what comes to mind first about the skill sets that they should develop if they want to advance beyond individual contributor?

- I think if you're looking at moving towards the C-Suite, it's really important to build out your skill sets around understanding financial reporting. And a lot of people in safety will say, "Well, you know, I have a budget." Well, it's different when you're reading the financials for a large organization, or even a smaller organization when you're looking at revenues and you're looking at debt and you're trying to figure out ratios and you're forecasting.

And so understanding what that means to the success of an organization, and then understanding enterprise risk. And so suddenly you're not just looking at, you know, life safety risk or health risk, but you're looking at enterprise-wide risk. And so suddenly you're talking about geopolitical risk. You're talking about economic risks.

You're talking about inflation. You're talking about long-term human resource capability. You're talking about succession planning. And so looking up and looking out becomes a very different conversation. And so most importantly, for a person working in safety, male, female, or otherwise, wanting to move ahead, that conversation and that shift in your thinking has to happen for you to succeed.

You've got to move. You've got to make that shift to thinking to an enterprise-wide risk perspective.

- Yeah. And that speaks to what you were talking about change management. How can you expect to bring people along if you don't understand the language they're speaking or the priorities they have, which are going to be in the financials?

- Yeah. And it's a migration of thinking too. You know, if somebody was to say to me, Stephanie, do you do safety? Well, no, I don't do safety like I did before. I'm not in the field, you know, working with crews to identify hazards and to put in risk mitigation and to break procedures. I don't do that.

I run a department with a big budget and I do strategic planning. And, you know, I do resource planning and I look at market risks and economic risks in addition to regulatory risk. So, it becomes far different how I operate as a senior safety leader. And so that's the migration that has to happen.

And it's a big struggle for people. And so any opportunity you have to learn something different than safety that will help that is important.

- Okay. Well, we're near the end here, but there are a few questions that I ask all my guests just for fun. Just for fun.

- Okay.

- There's nothing that is intended to inspire, shock, or awe. So, let's say that we had the University of Stephanie. You can teach what you like, but you know that your students are aspiring safety professionals. So, they're young, they haven't started yet. Aside from the obvious sort of, you know, understanding regulations and that kind of thing, legal and regulatory things, what would you teach them?

- I would teach them essential skills on building trust and having courageous conversations.

- Good. Having courageous conversations is not one that I've heard before. That's great.

- Yeah. Good to be different. Yeah. And in fact, I just took my entire team through that exact, you know, it's always safety. Yes, we're caregivers and yes, everybody has the best of intention, but sometimes we have to have a hard conversation. And hard doesn't mean impossible. It's courageous.

And so what does that look like? So, how to build trust so that you can have a courageous conversation.

- Which is I would think even more important for young, you know, people just starting out in their career, which is kind of a vulnerable time anyway, you know, when you're as they say, the low man on the totem pole.

- Yes. And, you know, we call them soft skills, they're essential skills. Make no mistake about it. You can't do senior-level change management if you can't build trust and have a courageous conversation.

- Okay. So, if you could go back in time to the beginning of...this could be the beginning of your career or beginning of your safety career. I mean, you choose the point. What is one piece of advice that you would give to young Stephanie?

- Oh, that's a good one. The one piece of advice that I would give to young Stephanie, I guess would believe in yourself sooner. It took me a while. It took me a while to build my confidence. You know, in my early career, I was beaten down, you know, constantly. Opportunity wasn't easy.

I had to fight for it. And every time I articulated my desire to move ahead or fought for an opportunity, I was called a bitch, or asked if I was on my period, whatever the hell that means, you know, or referred to as aggressive. So, yeah, I would've done that sooner.

- How can our listeners learn more about some of the topics in our discussion? Now, certainly, you've mentioned a couple of books, are there any websites or organizations that you would point people towards?

- Yeah. I mean, certainly, for women working in safety, so WOH, Women in the Occupational Health and Safety Society, wohss.com is a wonderful organization to join. The membership fee is incredibly low, and you have mentorship, learning, and networking opportunities.

So, that's a great place. The Americans also have one, Australia has one, in the UK they also have women's organizations, join those. And if you're a brother or other working in safety, join them too and be an ally so we can have the conversations. I think that if you're interested in Canada and some really good data, there's a good book that was written by Dr.

Karen Messing, entitled Shape. So, she's out of Eastern Canada and a professor, and she wrote this great book with Canada-centric data on what it's like for women, Shame, Solidarity, and Women's Bodies at Work. So, educate yourself, learn more, start in your own shop, and reach out. Ask people.

You know, a lot of us are very active on forums like LinkedIn, join associations, and be curious.

- That's going to be our motto today.

- So, where can our listeners find you on the web? I'm thinking LinkedIn might be one of the places.

- Yeah, definitely. You know, certainly, as you mentioned in the beginning, I sit on the Board of Canadian Registered Safety Professionals. And so if you're a CRSP or a CRST, I welcome the invite if you want to have a conversation. If you're in British Columbia, happy to have a conversation, if you're anywhere in the world. I love to talk about safety. I love to talk about women working in this industry.

And I'm always happy to have a discussion. And if you want to be an ally and learn more what it's like for women working in safety, reach out. We can have a talk.

- Well, I'm afraid that's all the time we have for today. I really appreciate your time and your insight, Stephanie. Thanks for joining us.

- Thank you so much, Mary.

- And I'd like to thank our audience for supporting us. If you enjoyed this podcast and you have a minute, we'd love it if you could leave a review on your podcast platform to help like-minded safety professionals find our interviews. And I did want to say the other day, I had someone comment that I was so organized and professional in creating this podcast, and I had to tell her it's not me. It's the Safety Labs team working behind the scenes.

So, once again, thank you, team. You make me look good. That's all for today. Bye for now. Safety Labs is created by Slice, the only safety knife on the market with a finger-friendly blade. Find us at sliceproducts.com.

Until next time, stay safe.