Why Safety Needs More Fun and Connection

In this episode, Mary Conquest speaks with Stephen Harvey, an operations-focused HSE professional who takes a pragmatic approach to risk. Currently senior health and safety partner with Origin Energy, he shares his extensive experience of embedding contemporary safety practices and positively impacting organizational safety culture.

Steve believes safety management is too boring, and he’s on a mission to infuse more fun and connection into the industry.

He’s passionate about developing relationships with frontline workers and helps safety professionals become a conduit between the office and the field. Steve believes in the power of humor and stories and explains how his hobby - standup comedy - has made him a more effective HSE professional.

Language is very important to Steve, and he demonstrates how the words you use can change your organization's safety culture. At the same time, he feels safety data is over-relied upon and highlights the importance of collecting the stories (qualitative research) underlying the metrics to uncover actual safety performance.

Another key focus for Steve is unpacking the safety bureaucracy that slows people down, and he has great advice on making checklists more relevant.

Steve has an alter ego on Instagram - Safetybhoy, and he explains how embracing social media can make safety more interesting and start new conversions. It’s a fun interview, full of great stories and you won’t regret connecting with Stephen Harvey!

♪ [music] ♪ - [Mary] My name is Mary Conquest. I'm your host for "Safety Labs by Slice," the podcast where we explore the human side of safety to support safety professionals. We move past regulations and reportables to talk about the core skills of safety leadership: empathy, influence, trust, rapport.

In other words, the soft skills that help you do the hard stuff. ♪ [music] ♪ Hi there. Welcome to "Safety Labs by Slice." Today's guest has lots to share about how to connect with and influence frontline workers. He's also passionate about decluttering safety procedures and the importance of capturing stories to better understand risk.

He's serious about fun, as demonstrated in what he does in his spare time, which I will get into in the interview because it has a surprising amount in common with safety training. So stay tuned for that. Stephen Harvey is an operations-focused health and safety professional who takes a pragmatic approach to risk. He has extensive experience embedding contemporary safety practices and driving organizational safety culture through the capture of work insights and supplementary learning processes, closing the gap between work-as-imagined and work-as-done.

Stephen has been in the OHS profession for 15 years and is currently a senior health and safety partner with Origin Energy. His work was featured in the 2017 documentary, "Doing Safety Differently." Stephen strongly values a collaborative approach to enhance both the employee experience and operational objectives, and he believes in having some fun along the way.

Stephen joins us from Brisbane. Welcome.

- [Stephen] Thanks, Mary. What a fabulous introduction, I'm really excited about this Slice. I actually sound interesting.

- Well, I'm sure our listeners will agree by the end that you, in fact, are. So, let's start with influencing frontline workers. So why is that an important skill for a safety professional?

- Mary, as far as I'm concerned, it really is such an important skill, and it's one of these things we've really got to harness and get better at. We have the power on that to sort of capture those sort of stories from the front line so that we can sort of influence change, right? So we are the conduit between the guys on the front and the people in the office.

That's what I call myself, you know, a little bit of that conduit. So it's really important to be in there, doing the work, understanding the pain points, understanding where the risks are, and then being able to share those stories back. And to be able to build that trust, it's such an important thing, too. So for me, one of the things that I do is I get right in to the front line.

I'll have lunch with the guys, I won't even talk about safety when I meet these people. I'll talk about their families, I'll talk about what interests them, we'll talk about sports activities, and just really get in there and build those relationships. And then in time, that's when you start to uncover some of the work as imagined that we spoke about in the introduction.

And some of these larger organizations, you have, like...they call it the blue line, black line, I'm pretty sure you've heard of that term before, I've heard some of the guests talking about it. So I will go in and talk about this as well, you know, saying, "Hey, so the black line is me, the blue line is you, where are some of the gaps? What do we need to fix up for you? What do we need to try and make work better for you?"

And I really try and focus on that, too, you know, I really try and say, "This is not about making safety better, this is about work. How can we improve work?" Which in turn will automatically improve safety. So yeah, for me, it's just really getting in there, starting to really force those relationships and just be a good dude. You know, like, just be, like...show that...I don't think it's too hard for me to show that I'm authentic and that I actually genuinely care for people.

And that's what really inspires me, right, you know, that's what people on...and that's what kind of makes me successful. Well, I'd like to think so. Is just my ability to be able to connect and sort of start influencing that work on the front line. Not telling them what to do, but just trying to coach, have those coaching conversations where I can take it back to the leadership and say, "Hey, we might need to look at this. this looks like a burning issue."

- Yeah, so, it sounds like, yeah, like you just pointed out, influencing is not necessarily about, you know, charging in and changing people's behaviors so much as kind of understanding where they are, why they're doing what they're doing, and making the work better. So along those lines, you told me when we last spoke that one of your key skills is something that you call industrial empathy.

Can you explain what you mean by that?

- Yeah, look, that's a term I've stolen, I'd love to go and claim that as my own.

- Oh, okay.

- By Bob Edwards, and I've also heard Ken Bancroft talk to that, too. And basically, for me, that's being able to be in the boots of the guys doing the work. Now, I used to be a car mechanic. Like, I was never much of a car mechanic if I'm totally honest. But I've done it for a long time, and it got me to Australia, so I'm very grateful for that.

[Inaudible], is I know what it's like to do work in the field. I know the shortcuts that people take. I know some of the risky tasks that we do when we don't have the right tools, or right equipment, or the right systems supporting us. So I think that sort of gives me that sort of edge when things go wrong. So one of the questions that I ask myself when things go wrong is, "I wonder why that made sense for them to do that."

And I'll sort of say that, like, in front of leaders as well so that they don't go straight into that judgment. So for me, being an ex-mechanic...like I said, not very good, you wouldn't want me fixing your car, Mary, [inaudible], I'm telling you. But it just gave me that edge to understand what really happens in the fields.

- And so, that's important for your connection, I guess?

- Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. And, like, when I start telling people, like...and I actually still say I'm a mechanic. I mean, I'm a mechanic. That's what I tell people. You know, I don't tell them I'm a safety whatever. I still talk like I'm a mechanic, and it also just helps me with that influencing, you know. Like, where I work just now is heavy transport, and we move quite a lot of things around on trucks.

So I'm able to talk to the guys, you know, and say, "Hey, you know, talk me through this and all. I'm a mechanic, I get it, I'm not office lackey." So, it's just able to, like, say...having that trade background, I think, it really does help all safety people. And, like, most of the safety folks that I know have actually come from that experience, you know, they've had some sort of other...they've been dropped in a safety role role from somewhere.

And they've just the best...like, this will probably be controversial, I know it. Heaps of people say that on your podcast, "This'll probably be controversial," right?

- Stay tuned, this will be controversial.

- Yeah, fire and brimstone. But I actually do think that some of the best are really the ones that have been in the field, and they sort of get it, and they understand what it's like to work there. They are the ones that have that empathy with the frontline teams. That's why definitely being an ex-mechanic has helped me be in the shoes of the others.

- So then if you were to have, like, a mentee or something, a younger or newer safety professional who maybe hadn't been in that situation but had gone straight into safety, do you have any advice on how they might develop that kind of industrial empathy?

- Yeah, get out of the office, get the boots on, and get in and work with the guys. You don't need to get your hands dirty. I quite often say to people, "These hands are not getting dirty anymore, but I'll sit here beside you, and, like, I'll talk to you and ask you questions while you do the work." That's my sort of thing. I'll say, "Hey, I'm not doing the work. I've done my time."

But yeah, I would definitely recommend people get the boots on, get in the field, and just start asking great questions about people's work and what they do, and, honestly, that will serve you well.

- So what makes a great question? You mentioned earlier that you said you'll have lunch with them and not even talk about safety. Are there any kind of go-to, like, when you just are first getting to know someone or?

- Like, I have a pretty unique advantage over most, to be honest, because I have an interesting voice, as I'm sure you can hear. So right away, that makes a great conversation starter. So people will find me interesting because of my accent, right? Even though I put it on.

- I'm actually American.

- Yeah. So that's the way that I...so, I'll just start, and, like I said, I'll just say, "Hey, tell me about your work, you know? What do you do here? What's interesting? You know, like, what pisses you off about this place?" And then just sort of talk to them about the footy teams and, like, I have to [inaudible] by mentioning Glasgow Celtic, that's my team that I follow in Scotland. So those guys.

And that's what...we talk about football. And then when I've started building those, when they've started being a bit softer around me, I've actually got a pretty good ability doing that quite fast, and then I can start approaching and sort of saying, "Hey, talk to me about the work, you know." What does safety do that really annoys you? What are some of these activities that you do in the name of safety that you just don't understand, that don't make sense?" And I'll tell you what, be prepared for some of the answers because some of them can be quite confronting.

And, normally, it's based right at us, you know, we are the guys that have created this work, but also, that gives us the power to take it away if we have done it. So yeah, that would...like, again, I just like to meet those relationships because it means I can have difficult conversations with people as well. Once I've built that relationship, if something's not going quite to plan, I can say, "Hey, you know, let's chat, let's talk about this. You know, how can we make this better?"

- I think just by showing up and asking questions, you're showing them that you're not, "Hello, I'm from safety, and I've come to dictate some new procedure that makes no sense." You've presented yourself as a person, and then it might...well, you don't want them to hold back. They see you as a person, or they see safety, the safety department, as human as well.

- Yeah, absolutely. And I think safety's got a real branding issue, I really do. It's something that...like, I'm pretty fortunate, like, see, I'm able to connect pretty quickly, but I've been dropped into other places where safety's an irrelevance. I was in a meeting once, and I met quite a senior leader of an organization, and it was when I started a new company, and the lady said to me, "Oh, yeah, safety's where we drop people that we just don't know what to do with anymore. We put them in the safety department."

And I laughed, and I laughed. And I kind of reflected on it, and I thought, "Yeah that's probably true, actually," you know, like, "I was one of those guys." And I do know lots of people who have been in that sort of space for just, like, we just do not know what to do with people. So where are we going to sort of...like, where do we put them? I know, we'll put them at safety.

- Do you think that a lot of those people, then, though...I mean you've obviously sort of taken up the challenge and, you know, tried to do your level best to make things better, to learn, and that sort of thing. Do you think that that happens?

- I would love to...I can give you a good example of...I used to have a team that reported to me, and there was a lad who had been at the organization for 30-odd years. And he wasn't loving these safety values. I think he was seen as someone who was just told to go in and be a safety cop. Now, I started talking to this gentleman about, you know, like, the hot principles and talked to people about work and being interested in work and learning, and trying to get them to reflect on what went well and what didn't go quite so well in the normal days, and this guy was transformed.

It was quite profound, actually, when he started to send...like, he wasn't a reader. Like, I'm a massive reader. I consume books, honestly, and I love podcasts. I do it all. But this guy, he wasn't. So I had to just go feed him some of the hot principles or some of the safety differently concepts. And then I would say, "[inaudible], when you go and meet the teams, just ask them this question," and you could see the difference whenever he was coming back.

And I remember going to do a site visit with him, and I started talking, Mary, and the guy, one of the leaders actually said to me, "Oh, you talk the way that Bruno talks. You know, Bruno talks about learning and improving work and all that sort of thing." And it was really...you know, I was like, "Oh, yeah." That day I was like, "Yes," you know, "it's working."

And I said, "Yeah, it's really brilliant he talks this, and it's really good that he talks about, you know, the way that work should be done." And yeah, that was such a great moment. And, again, that was just influence, just sitting, just ask one better question rather than going in and just saying, "Hey, that's not right," you know, like safety would normally do. "That doesn't look right, but I don't know what you're doing, but it doesn't look right, stop the job."

Just going, asking these curious questions, and yeah, that was a great moment that one.

- So, that's talking about the front line. What about influencing leadership? Do you kind of take the same approach, or are there different things that you do?

- In my current role, it's a bit harder to get exposure to the leadership because it's such a diverse, like, dispersed organization, like, the leadership's all over the place and there's a few levels. My sort of approach now is if I can influence the people on my level and the people below me, hopefully, that'll create this sort of wave of sort of excellence, right?

Safety excellence, and people will...and then that'll make the leaders above them a bit curious about, "Hey, what's happening?" or they might start hearing. But I know from a previous organization, the philosophy that we were using, we had a couple of new leaders who probably weren't comfortable with what we were doing, and it's simply because they just didn't know, right?

They just didn't understand. So I would go in the fields with these guys and just sort say, "Hey, how do you get your knowledge? Is it through books? Is it through podcasts? Is it through research papers? You know, tell me where you get it." And they would go, "Oh, I love reading," or, "I love podcasts." And I would say, "Oh, well here's a podcast for you. Have a listen to this, and tell me what you think." Or, "Here's a book. Have a read at this, and tell me what you think."

And slowly but surely, they turn around, you know, particularly around high reliability theories. People kind of like that, you know, like, particularly engineers, they just go, "Oh, yeah, yeah, kind of like a bit of that." So that's how I would do it. So it's basically just try to get in the ear of these guys and just saying, "Hey, you know, what do you read, what do you listen, what influences you?"

And then just try and find something that will resonate with them. You know, like I can think of a podcast, I know we'll probably talk about this stuff at the end, but there's a podcast called "Rethinking Safety." And that's a great podcast to share with people, particularly senior executives, because it's really well done, and it's great storytelling. So that's something to share.

But right now, like I say, and I would say this to anyone... you'll get this all the time, people say, "Oh, the leaders at the top, they don't listen to me. This is pointless. It's not working." But don't underestimate the changes that you can make by just influencing the people beside you and the people down below you. And if that's where you have to focus, that's where you need to go, right? And you really will make change, you know, just by changing the conversations.

That's where I'm with that one.

- Yeah, that's good. It's kind of a variation on, you know, meet people where they are, speak their on language, and that sort of thing. And also, you know, your work will speak for itself if you...they'll hopefully notice.

- Yeah, look, I'm definitely a big believer in listening to the language that people are using. You'll get an indicator very, very quickly about the culture of an organization just just by the way that people talk. You know, if you start to hear blame and punishment sort of language and, "Or else." And right away, I will go in and sort of change that and challenge it.

I will start talking about learning, I'll start talking about improving, you know, innovation and then, yeah, why did that make sense for them to do that rather than... And that's uncomfortable as well, maybe, you know, like I've been challenged a number of times where people are going, "No, he's just an idiot. You know, he's just like..." But you just have to be dogged, you just have to be true to your values and just keep going for it.

It will be challenging, but it will be worth it in the end, trust me.

- So one thing, speaking of listening to people, you emphasize the importance of collecting stories as instead of...sorry, not instead of, in addition to quantitative data, like, when you're looking at risk and trying to understand it, you've said that the numbers are great, but they're not the whole picture, and you really need this kind of story, or testimony, or anecdote.

So why do you think that that's an important dimension that adds understanding?

- There's a great quote from a guy called Greg Smith [inaudible]... Excuse me. He says, like, safety is a narrative, not a number. And it's something that's really stuck with me because...like, I was at a site yesterday and they had all this zero plastered all over the place. And then to walk through that, you'd be like, "Oh, geez, that's great."

You know, if I could tell the story of this work, it would be a lot different to that number on the front door, if that makes sense. You know, just from walking around and listening to people, you think, "Well, that number doesn't make any sense." But I think we get these recordables and LTI rates, and they just sort of...we're always looking to trim them down, you know.

Like, we need them close to zero as possible, and it's not capturing the true stories of what's happening. You know, like, you could change a light bulb in your office on...looks like a wheelie chair, right? And the wires could be hanging down, right?

- Oh, I've never done that.

- Yeah, right. I would never do anything like...even when I was a mechanic, I would never do anything dodgy. But what I mean is we could do work that's not quite as safe every single day but never have an accident. So that's going to show in their trending rates, right? That's going to show in these LTI rates or, like, the TRIFR rates because people go, "Wow, everything must be great because nothing's happening."

But when you start digging deeper into the stories of the work, you know, when people start going, "Hey, like, I use, like, a [inaudible] to work at heights," you go, "What?" You know, like or, "I don't have a harness when I climb up on top of this excavator," or, "There's no barriers around this excavator, and I have to climb up it every single day." When you start hearing that stuff, it's like, okay, you know, and it's not if it happens, it's when it happens.

- Right. [crosstalk] And that's sort of the difference when you're looking at risk, right? As opposed to what has happened.

- Yeah.

- It's worrying.

- Yeah, totally. And like, just when I was talking about if and when, that's something I'd really encourage, like, people to do as well, you know, don't talk about, "If this happens," you know, because then that gives someone an escape route. They'll probably go, "Oh, that doesn't happen." But when you change the question to, like, "So when this happens, how do we control that? How do we respond to this?" And it really offers some brilliant insights around how they would react and respond. So, in terms of going back to the quality of that, I just think the stories tell so much better than what they do with the numbers.

Because when you look at the numbers...like, I'm really the wrong guy to ask about this stuff now. Because when we look at the numbers where I am now, I'm just like, "La, la, la." So what's laying behind this stuff? You know, we've got this amazing data, but what's it telling us about what's really happening out there?

So yeah, we talk about critical control work, work insights, and verifications, and all sort of stuff, you know, that is when you can capture the anecdotal stories and watch how people interact with these crucial systems. That's really...you know, a number's not going to tell you how that work is done unless something goes wrong.

- Yeah. So that leads me to my next question, is whether when you're collecting these stories, do you have kind of a systematic approach? Like, are you already curious about a particular thing, or is it just sort of less formal and having to do with the connections that you were talking about earlier?

- Look, it really depends. Quite a few times, I've just basically asked a couple of questions, and then it's led me on this sort of path of discovery. I can think of one, a number of years ago, I was in the field, and I was just...the guys were working this big excavation, and I was like, "Wow, you know, that's pretty massive." You know, "How is that controlled?"

And then they just said to me, "Well, but, Steve, you should be more concerned about this one. We have to climb up on the top of the truck." And I was like, "What?" They were like, "Yeah, we have to climb up on top of the truck to do this work." And I'm like, "Oh, wow, that's interesting." And then that led me to go to the other people and sort of say, "Hey, tell me about how you do this?" And they were like, "Oh, yeah, we have to climb up on top of the truck. Its very risky."

And then you say, "Well, why don't you tell us this stuff?" It's like, "Ah, we just go on with work, we just get on with the job." And then that's a good opportunity for me to go, "Hey, I think this is a big issue for us. Maybe we need to run, like, a learning team or get a group of the guys together and just sort of talk through and find out what's really happening here."

And yeah, and that's when you find out, "Hey, it went from me just being on site, looking at a big excavation, to being this, 'Hey, we've got this working-at-heights issue.'" So I mean, that's really how it happens. It's just about being curious and asking some just better questions and also being sort of trustworthy enough that people will talk to you and tell you this stuff's happening.

- Yeah, for sure. One of the things that I think you do that maybe helps build that trust is you call yourself a safety performance professional, and you're talking about how that you're unpacking the bureaucracy that slows people down. And I'm pretty sure that bureaucracy is fairly universally hated by anyone who has to just get on with the work and get the job done.

So tell me a little bit about that?

- Yeah, like the decluttering stuff, this is the hardest thing that we can ever do in safety because as soon as we start having the conversations about what we can get rid of, you start to see a few nervous twitches, and then people just going, "But we need it," you know, "We need it. The regulator's going to ask for this stuff." And then you ask the question again, and say, "Hey, do you know this? How do you know the regulator's going to ask for this?"

And they might, but do we really need it? Let's research it, you know, let's try and understand what we really need. But yeah, decluttering, it's something I've been involved with before, a couple of organizations. I'm trying to embark on it at my current one, but, like I say, it's very, very challenging. I know from experience that when we take documents away, people will create new documents outside of the system because they need that.

It's like a safety comfort blanket. You know, it's almost like, "Oh no, we just need to do this. We just need to sort of...like, we're taking this away, but it just doesn't feel right, you know." And we're like, "No, it's fine, you know, we've coached you, we've trained you, how you, like, do this stuff better," but it's just something that's really, really hard to do. Have a crack at it, and definitely sort of have a look at some of these documents that you might no longer be fit for purpose.

But my sort of approach to that now mainly is if we've got, like, a checklist that's maybe, like, 30, 40 lines long, we can sort of maybe say, like, "How can we reduce this? How can we make it to the stuff that really, really matters in this?" You know, "What are some of the things in here that we can take away?" But it just makes people nervous, honestly, that's my experience in all of that.

- Yeah, and, I mean, it's a balancing act, I'm sure. It's not like you're taking away every safety thing.

- Yeah, absolutely.

- But you mentioned to me that you've encountered or heard tell of an actual checklist for how to sit in the passenger seat of a vehicle. Is that right?

- Yeah, and there's other stuff as well about, you know, I've seen, like, garbage bins sort of checklist. You know, we just create stuff, a checklist for inspecting fridges, you know, and inspecting off-seasonal thing. I read a book, [inaudible] idea about maybe two years ago called "The Checklist Manifesto." And the person that...Atul Gawande, he was, like, a surgeon, and he created the pre-surgery checklist.

Now, he always talks about you have between, I think it's five and nine checkpoints on a checklist. So I've always tried to do that now, you know, like, how can we narrow this down? So that allows your...it's like a freedom within a frame. You know, what's the safety nets that we need to have in this thatstill allows you to think and look around and make decisions about how work is done?

So but yeah, it's lot easier said than done. But the beauty of some of these documents, is, like, if we own them as a safety team, we can just turn them off, right? And just do that experiment and just sort of, "Let's not make this accessible," you know, "Let's have a look and see if anyone uses this." And you'll probably find that none of them do. You've got those ubiquitous sort of pre-start risk assessment tools and pre-start vehicle checklists, you know, like, I personally think they're absolutely a waste of time.

But how can we repurpose them and make them really matter? And that's some of the things that I'm sort of working at just now, you know, how can we make you walk around the vehicle and really inspect the things that matter rather than sitting in an office, just going, tick, tick, tick, tick, that's me done, jumping in the truck?

- So who gets more nervous, or maybe everyone equally, but who gets more nervous when you try to declutter sort of pare down procedures? Is it the people who are doing the procedures because they feel maybe they don't feel confident that without the checklist that they'll either do it right? Or is it people who are more in leadership who are thinking, "If you don't do that, we're not covered legally," or whatever?

Like, what are the fears behind that?

- Yeah, look, I've experienced frontline staff as well being a bit nervous of removing documents. In our previous organization, we looked at removing the pre-start checklist and made it become, like, a guided conversation. And I remember one guy in particular who was like, "Steve, I'm not comfortable with this at all. You know, like, what if something was wrong? Like, that'll be the first thing that you guys ask for."

And it's like, but you're not really doing it just now. So what's the difference? It's like, I suppose what he was saying was, "Well, if something goes wrong, I will fill that form in before you come to site." Essentially, you know, so it's like it's there after the fact to be able to sign something. But generally, it's mostly...frontline leaders, actually, they get a wee bit more nervous about it.

I've recently tried to embark on a similar sort of project, removing the frontline or even just repurposing it and making it...not completely removing it, but just doing something different with it. And those leaders are like, "Well, where do we stand legally with this?" And it doesn't matter how many times I show them and say, "Look..." because, like, I've got a mate who's a fireman, and I sort of tell his stories, he is like...he doesn't fill in a Take 5 when he is just about to run in in, like, a bomb in building.

He's just well trained, and he's risk competent. And I think that's probably what we need to try and do. It's almost like it's the last line for organizations to control their workers, "Lets take five." You know, it's like, "Oh, here we go, before they execute their work. Oh, here's this last feedback to try and make them think differently." So its really what we need to do, just create, like, risk-competent workers talking about the stuff that's happening out there, you know, talking about that everyday.

I love post-job reflections, I think there's so much value in those. You're just getting the people to talk about the work every day, and, you know, even they have become paperwork as well, right? So we're in this...they have this fuss for proceduralization. But, again, so I'd say, to your point, [inaudible], everyone kind gets nervous about removing stuff because it's safety, right?

But I tell you what, see, when you add documents, oh, let's go, let's add them in, let's add whatever we need, you know, but we'll add more lines in the process. We'll create a procedure for being a passenger on a vehicle. We'll create this...this has happened, you know, like, we need to do something, We need to be seen to be doing something, and then that's why we create this process. But yeah, look, I'd really encourage people to start having the conversations about what really matters.

And if you don't have the confidence to get rid of it, which 99% of people don't really, let's try and, you know, repurpose it, do something else with it, create a cartoon, you know, create, like...have a picture storyboard or something instead, you know, remove the checklists, make it five or nine lines long and just try and change it.

But yeah, we've got a long, long way to go, I think, before we really start being brave enough to remove this. And basically, we need lawyers and those guys to help educate us. So there's a few of them out there that are sort of really telling us these things are not really that valuable unless you're actually following them to the letter.

But the problem is we don't know many people that actually do follow them to the letter.

- I would think that they would actually be dangerous if you have them and don't follow them to the letter. Because then if there was some legal situation, you know, you're like, "Well, you had the standard, but you didn't use it," is probably worse than, "Well, you didn't have the standard, so you did your best." I don't know, lets stop right there.

- Yeah, that's what I'm saying. But that's the thing, we are both not lawyers.

- Exactly.

- Well, I am certainly not any. I'm still a mechanic, right? And but what we do know from talking to our people is they think this stuff's useless and it doesn't help them, it doesn't support their work. So how can we create documents and how can we create process that helps support their work?

- And that might be part of the connection piece, too, right? If you are creating processes and checklists or whatever, or removing them in such a way that you're supporting the work, I imagine that that helps the workers feel connected with that you actually are...you don't just...you're not just sort of this weird parental figure telling them what to do or not to do, but you actually care about making their day to day more manageable.

- Yeah, absolutely. And get the people who that...I mean, we, as in safety and the office people and whoever, we create all that stuff and pass it down [inaudible] the people on the front line, and say, "Hey, you need to do this now." And they're like, "What? Like something else?" I mean, and we haven't got them involved in the design process. In fact, I've only ever known that once.

I mean, I'm sure that happens to heaps of places. But in my own experience, I've only known that to happen once when we created the guided conversation, we actually went to the field and said, "Hey, what questions do you ask yourself when you do this work?" And then we just sort of created a conversation piece from that, you know, it was nothing. How often do we use difficult and complicated language when we're writing procedures and process, you know, and stuff, like, people just can't make...like, mechanics can't make sense of it, right?

You know, people just can't make sense. So, like, write the process using their language. [inaudible]. But yeah, help them engineer and design their process, right? But we don't do it a lot, unfortunately, because the guys don't have time to come off the tools and...

- That's true, you have to support them in having that time, right? They can't be like, "Okay, you've called me over here, but now I'm nervous because I'm not going to meet a quota or something." It has to be clear that, you know, "No, we support you, it's okay, like..." So I'm going to switch gears here...

- Oh, you will?

- ...speaking of mechanics, and say that in the intro I alluded to what you do in your spare time. You are a stand-up comedian.

- Loosely. I have certainly done a few shows. It's the most nerve-wracking thing I've ever done.

- I can imagine.

- But the reason that I'd done it was just so I could make safety better, right? But its something I've always wanted to do. I've always wanted to have a crack at doing a bit of stand-up. But I figured if I could do it and it would just make me a better communicator. And, like, I'm hilarious anyway, right, so. But yeah, actually, I'd done it just so that I could make safety fun. That's one of my sort of values, is having fun.

But what I didn't sort of know at the time when I started doing it is that how much the writing can influence safety. You know, like, so I am basically writing every single day now. I think that's what I enjoy more actually than the actual performing, is the writing process, because you can see the banal and everything, right? And you hear these conversations, you're like, "Oh, that's hilarious, I'm writing that down."

And then when you see it, you're like, "Oh my God, we make people do this stuff," or, you know, "This is absolutely crazy." But there's, you know, like, some other interesting concepts in the writing. I've done, like, training in this, and one of the things that [inaudible] was talking about

[inaudible] was just stand in a different location and have a look at the same thing, right? So, let me try to explain that easily. When you have your dinner at home, you probably sit in the same chair every single night, right? Because I know what I do, and I sit in the same spot in the living room and watch the telly in the same spot. So basically try moving somewhere else, move in a different direction, and then sort of see what you see then.

And it's so true, though, you know? How many times do we just sit in that one spot and just look at work or whatever, rather than just moving around and sort of seeing it from a different angle? Or even just seeing life in a different way, you know, like, look up and do that. So, that's why I've been there. So basically, I've done the stand-up to try and make safety better, but trying to make safety funny is a whole different matter, really.

Like, [inaudible] I think we'd lose...I think we're scared of humor in buildings, and I think we're scared of humor in the office. You know, like, I think we're scared of offending people a lot, which is, frankly...it's something I don't really worry too much about. I definitely don't go, like, super offensive or anything like that, but I make fun of the company, and I'll make fun of me, and I'll make fun of safety in general and that sort of stuff.

And it just makes for better conversations.

- I think, too, you mentioned something about a stand-up show, about the performing part, is that when you're not headlining the new Netflix special, you know, when you're not...

- Yeah, a long way from that.

- Hannah Gadsby or whatever, right? So, you get how much time on the stage? Like, not very much.

- No. You get five to seven minutes, and I tell you what, if you go over 6:59, you're getting the hook to pull you off. So you only basically get five minutes, and particularly when you're way down the line, like I am. I'm normally the first one on when everybody's still sober, which helps me a lot. Yeah, you get basically five minutes.

So what that also allows you to do, and this is where the writing come in, it allows you to formulate lots of information, but you cut out unnecessary rubbish. So I have to tell multiple stories. So, normally, I have about five to seven different subjects that I'll sort of approach in those five minutes.

Some will go for a couple minutes, whatever. But you have to get rid of quite a lot of the rubbish, you know, like words that don't make any sense. So you have to play on words, you know, like lefty-loosey, loosey-goosey, you know, like those, you have to have those. And they're always quite memorable as well, right? So if we're ever writing stuff like this, I mean, not so much writing in process and procedures, but when we sort of deliver training, we can talk about these things, you know, lefty-loosey, you know, blah, blah, blah.

Just making those things, the play on words, memorable. So yeah, when you're writing your scripts, you just have to make sure that you get that right, well, obviously, the funny information, in your script and just remove any of the sort of clutter. So I've tried to do that. So how I bring that into safety is I try and keep all my sort of safety communications to one page.

So I try and...I'll have a look at...say, [inaudible], I have to write the minutes for a HSE meeting or something. I'll keep it to one page, and I'll try and just put all the punchy points in and try and just keep it so that it makes sense. So I was struggling a wee bit with that because people who aren't in the meeting, they go, "Oh, like, this doesn't make sense.

This is not..." you know, people who are not in the meeting won't really understand that. So I'm still a work in progress, but I sort of call it the Twitter philosophy you know, like, how can I get...you know how you used to have 140 characters in Twitter? So it's like, how can I get maximum information into that 140 characters?

- Well, and that's true for safety training. I mean, I don't personally know the stats, but I know that, you know, people's attention span is very short, especially, I imagine, at a safety training. Like, most of us don't wake up in the morning and go, "God, I wish, you know, I hope that I get a safety training today."

So I think that just getting in there, being punchy, and telling it maybe in story form or whatever, you know, and giving them a laugh is probably pretty helpful.

- Yeah, definitely. And when I deliver in this training, I get the guys to do the talking, you know. So we'll have a subject. Yeah, like, people have been saying to me, like, "You talk too much when you do your toolbox talks," and go, "I didn't talk at all. I just started a conversation and facilitated the conversation." I've had that.

I used to work for a labor hiring company, and when I would do my toolbox talks, people would come in and say "Hey, that took too long. Normally, our toolbox take about 15, 20 minutes. Normally, these toolbox talks take about 15, 20 minutes, but yours are taking longer." And I was like, "Yeah, that's because I'm asking. I'm not just going through the motions and telling them and going through that. I'm actually interacting with them and letting them tell me what they need to do."

So yeah, even in safety training, you know, if I've got a subject we need to talk about, you know, I try and make it a safe space as possible or even crack a joke about, right? Everyone's dignity has now left the building and shut the door, boom. Mainly we're going to have a good chat about this. And, like, I will make sure that everyone's involved. I will actually, you know, not pick on people, but I'll say, "Hey, Dave, what do you think about this? Steve, what do you think of this?"

And then once you start talking to them and they're feeling safer, you can't shut them up. But it works for me, I don't know if it works for everyone else, but it certainly works for me. And, again, I think my voice and the way that I bring humor in safety works well for me.

- So, some of your safety values that you've talked about include fun, connection, and experiences. To me, it sounds like you could easily just be describing stand-up, like, just as easily as describing safety. Does that ring true for you?

- Well, they're my own personal values as well, right? So I definitely bring them in my work environment. I definitely know if you're not working to those values, then you're going to be pretty miserable. So that's why I try and bring fun and enjoy into everything I sort of really touch, you know. Like, even if I'm having quite a serious meeting, I'll probably throw in something, some comical line, just to try and break up that bloody beigeness.

You know, like, companies are really beige and boring, right? And I don't think that's sort of...I'm not quite sure where it comes from because I'm pretty sure the leaders at the top don't want the organizations to be beige and boring, you know, like so. Where does it manifest from, and why do we always think that we need to be serious all the time and be "professional?"

You know, it's like, why do we have to do it? So, like, that's why I don't, I always try and crack a funny and have a bit of a laugh. And anything that I do, particularly when it comes to safety, because it's such a bloody banal topic.

- Yeah, well, I think it's...I'm sure it's appreciated. Like, I think most of us, it takes effort to be "professional," whatever that means.

- Yeah, totally.

- And if you can tell jokes and relax a little bit, then you can be a little more authentic.

- Yeah, look, to being authentic, I think if I am me, you know, if I do go and take the mickey out of people, I actually know, I really know that I've connected before when they start taking the mickey out of me. You know, like, when I walk in a toolbox talk, they go, "Oh, here he is," you know, like, "Oh, look at this guy," that's when I know I'm starting to make a difference, and I'll start to hear stuff, and that's when I'll start to, you know, be able to capture some of those insights from the field around what's really happening.

And then, let's say, just spend the time with people.

- I wanted to ask, too, you also use social media and memes and that kind of thing in your work. What social media platforms do you use and, like, how do you use them? What do you use them for?

- Yeah, like, basically, I only use Instagram right now. But I do have a TikTok page, but I'm just not brave enough to put myself out there quite yet. I am working on it. But, like, for 100 years, Mary, we've basically gave people a bit of paper to say, "Here you go. Here's our safety alert," right? We're trying to shift 100 years of thinking essentially, right?

And, you know what it's like, people will get these safety alert and go, "All right, cool, whatever they saying, I've read it," but they haven't really, right? So I have my own little safetybhoy sort of Instagram page, where I just capture some of those sort of, you know when people post those sort of crazy videos online or start...like, I've heard people saying...they call it, like, safety porn, but I actually use it in a slightly different way.

I know people don't like the judgmental comments that come after this stuff. But what I've found in the past, and I've not been able to do it as much in my current role, but in the past, when I was sitting in toolbox talks, people would get these safety alerts and go, "All right, cool. Can you tell me what's happening on safetybhoy?" And we'd go through, and we'd go through some of my sort of stories, and we'd go through some of the videos.

And we'd just have to talk about it, you know, particularly, like, trenches and sort of people working around it, like, excavations, or people working at heights, or maybe some of these falls that were happening around, you know, and we could, like, have a nice sensible conversation. And if I did hear judgment, I could call it out because obviously, I'm driving tthe conversation. So if people go, "Oh, he was an idiot," well, I go, "No, no, no, hang a minute. How could that happen with us? Can it happen with us?"

And then they would probably go, "Well, no it can't because we use this or we've got these controls in place. You know, that would never happen here." So it just changes the conversation. And when you actually see something rather than read it, you know, like, it's something that really annoys me too, you know, like, people don't read documents, they scan them, right? You know, that's what they do, they just scan them. So if you put something up there that's, like, 15 seconds long, you know, you'll get more information in that 15 seconds than what you will read in, like, a massive document, right.

You probably wouldn't take much from the document, to be honest. At least then you can see and you can have these conversations. But I also use my sort of Instagram feed for...like I'm saying earlier, I read a lot, so it probably takes me longer to sort of read a book because I do this, but I will tape in stuff that means a lot to me, or I'll take a picture of a screen dump or something, if I'm using my Kindle stuff and then I'll put in my Instagram stories.

And, like, I mostly do that for me. But I know that other people do read them, though, because they tell me. And so anything that's interesting I will post in my Instagram stories And I've used the quotes from books to post on, like, social media internally, and the organization say, "Hey what about this quote?" you know. "What do you think of that?"

You know, like, there is one I can think of. This is from Todd Conklin, "Complacency is a byproduct of a stable system." You know, that generates brilliant conversations, you know, like, "Well what do you mean?" you know, and we're just able to talk stuff through. So, look, I'm a big fan of social media, and there was a wee bit of research that came out, I think it was either this year or the end of last year, talking about how we don't use social media enough to sort of generate safety interactions or use it as a...because we're still stuck to this bloody bit of paper, like Henry Ford was using, right?

[inaudible] because that is honestly right. We're trying to shift. Like, I know me and a few others, and you've had most of them on your podcast. We're trying to shift the way that we're thinking about work, and it's going to be a slow process, right? Because we've done the same work for 100 years, and now you get these young upstarts coming through, trying to change the way that we look at work. And using social media is just part of that.

And, like, I do follow quite a lot of people who post interesting stories and interesting...you know, it's mostly play-acting. There's one guy who puts out [inaudible] on TikTok who just sort of takes the mickey out of the workplace in general. But, again, it's just a conversation starter.

- Yeah, it is.

- You put it up on the screen, and you go, "Hey, what do you mean? Does that happen here?" "Oh, yeah, we've got people in the office that do that."

- Yeah. Or, "You're laughing a little too hard. I think you know exactly what they're talking about."

- Yeah. So I'm a big fan of social media. If I could get brave enough to show my face and maybe tell some stories on these reels, then I might. But, normally, I just normally take photos of the banality and the craziness of safety, you know, and share them online. Some of these signage that you see around the place, you know, like, "Hot water is hot," or, "This knife is sharp," or there's one photo in particular on safetybhoy that inspired the page, actually.

It was a stapler, and it said, "Aim away from face." Yeah, I know, right? But also when you see these on work sites, you actually get a feeling for what they really think about safety. You know, if I go into that kitchen and I see one that's, like, "Oh, knives are sharp," or, "Toaster is hot," as warning labels on hot water and stuff, that, to me, is a red flag. And right away, I will want to know how they manage high-risk work.

Or more likely how they don't manage high-risk work because they're so busy focusing on the stuff that doesn't matter. That they should be flipping that as focusing actually on the stuff that really does matter.

- Well I think it shows a lack of trust, too, right? Like, I mean you got to trust that your employees know that knives are sharp, I hope.

- Yeah, like, well, I always think...

- Kitchen knives.

- Yeah, yeah, all right. You know, like, you see quite a lot of things about prohibited items. And I was in an organization a number of years ago, and they asked me to deliver a toolbox talk on knives. So I was like, "No, I'm not doing it." And, like, "Steve, it's come from corporate. You need to do it." I was like, "I'm not doing it." You know, "Like, if we can trust people to drive 30-ton garbage trucks around schools and heavy traffic and flip these things over the head, and if we can trust people to do that, we can trust grown men and women to use a knife."

And yeah, that was the last I ever heard of that conversation. But, again, it was just when you start to compare it to other things. So we can trust people to run these major facilities, but we can't trust them to use a knife. You know, are we really going to end up with a fatality case if somebody cuts themselves? Obviously, we don't want people to hurt themselves, we definitely don't want people to have traumatic cuts from using a knife.

But it's like I was talking about earlier, you know, we need to create risk competency, you know, we need to talk about, "Hey, if you see somebody use a knife wrong, let's have a chat about, like, a nice way to do it or use your products, right? And, like, do you know what I mean? It's like we have to make sure...I know it sounds crazy, but maybe we do have to teach people how to use this stuff.

But if we ban them, what are they going to use instead? So, that's always a conversation. If you ban it, we need to work hard and find out what they're using instead because they obviously need these tools to get this job done. So if we're going to remove a chainsaw, you know, these guys are going to use a screwdriver, so be mindful of this. But yeah, at the end of the day, like you said, it comes down to trust.

- So we're getting close to time, but I have some questions that I like to ask at the end, and I think you know. Because you've heard the podcast before, you know what they are, but here we go. At the University of Stephen, the Safety University of Stephen, where would you focus soft skill training for tomorrow's safety professionals?

- Well, the University of Steve, right? There would be stand-up comedy, there'd be the live bands, and there'd be copious amounts of alcohol, right?

- Yeah.

- But when you graduate from the University of Steve and I come back and talk to you, I would be talking...like, listening, and I think it's something you need to learn, I really do, you know, and being curious. I actually learned to listen when I went to Toastmasters. So you might have heard of Toastmasters?

- I have, yeah.

- Yeah, so I went to a Toastmasters course in Brisbane.

- Just for our readers, that's...you learn public speaking, right? That's sort of the main...yeah.

- Yeah, you just learn how to communicate. Because when I came to Australia, I was always worried about my accent, right? And, like, if people would understand me. And turns out it's fine. Well, I hope it's fine. We'll soon find out if you get people going, "What the hell did he say?" But they taught me how to listen, and it was quite amazing actually.

So when you're having these conversations with people, you can actually...they have this um and ah counter. You know, when people go "mm," "um," "ah," and they use filler words. So, that really...the Toastmasters really helped me to listen. So yeah, at the University of Steve, listening skills would be up there, number one. And number two would be maintaining eye contact.

I think that's such an important skill to have just in life in general as well though. So listening and maintaining eye contact because that just helps build trust and shows that you care very quickly.

- Good, okay. If you could go back in time to the beginning of your safety career, is there one piece of advice that you would give young Steve?

- Stick to your dreams, and become a pop star. That would've been my advice to young Steve, but in terms of safety, like, I probably would've read more when I was one of those safety guys that was thrusted under these rules because they just didn't know what to do with them. Because I was injured in a workplace accident, and I wasn't going back to fixing cars. So I get put into a role that they were just like, "Let's just put them in there and he can help."

But I was not very good then. I was one of those guys that created lots of checklists, and I would be disruptive, and difficult, and annoying, and just probably not the way that I am now. So advice to 28-year-old Steve would've been, "Hey, read this book, and start reading this, and practice your softer skills."

[inaudible].

- Good, okay. You've mentioned a few things, but do you have any resources that you recommend to our listeners today? Like favorite books, for example.

- Well, I'm a massive book reader, but I know from listening to the podcasts, a lot of the people recommend "The Field Guide to Understanding 'Human Error'." I would definitely recommend that one. But I've started now reading outside of safety to help improve my work. And there's one book, it's really inspired me, and I think it's going to be the future of the safety profession.

It's a book called "The Ministry of Common Sense" by a guy called Martin Lindstrom, I think it is. But you'll never forget the title, "The Ministry of Common Sense." It is a brilliant read, and it talks about all that craziness that I spoke about earlier. Why we bring these crazy rules in and people can't work. You know, like, because we've lost our empathy in the workplace. We've lost our connection with the customers. So have a read at "The Ministry of Common Sense" because I believe that will be our career in the coming years, going in there and trying to get rid of all the rubbish.

- You heard it here first, folks. Just remember that. So, next I ask where people can find you on the web. You've already mentioned Instagram, what's the actual, like, profile?

- Yeah, well, you can get me on safetybhoy, which is...bhoy is B-H-O-Y. Again, that's a homage to my football team in Scotland. So you can get me on safetybhoy. Like I said, I share some pictures, I share lots of stories, but mostly I will share quotes from books that I read.

So if you have a look in my Instagram stories, please have a read at some of them. Like, there's quite a comprehensive collection of contemporary safety books in there and some others, "The Ministry of Comment Sense" being one. So you can get me there, you can get me on LinkedIn. I'm definitely pretty active on there. Please come and say hello. Actually, going back to Instagram, please don't be offended if I don't follow you because I like to keep safetybhoy free of dinners and pets because then that means I can share the stories, and it means my whole feed is taken up with, you know, like, safety activities and that sort of space.

So, but yeah, that's where you'll find me, and you can see me in those places. Always happy to catch up, always happy to say hello, and this has been great. It's been very, very enjoyable, Mary, thank you.

- Yeah. Well, yeah. I'd like to thank our listeners, of course, for tuning in, and thanks for lending us your time, and your wisdom, and your stories.

- Oh, my pleasure. This has been great, and keep up the great work.

- And lastly, of course, my thanks to the "Safety Labs by Slice" team, you are fantastic to work with, and that is no joke. So bye for now. ♪ [music] ♪ Safety Labs is created by Slice, the only safety knife on the market with a finger-friendly blade.

Find us at sliceproducts.com. Until next time, stay safe. ♪ [music] ♪