PPE for Women

In this episode, Mary Conquest speaks with Amy Roosa, a senior risk control specialist at Gallagher. She has 18 years of safety experience and has founded the Iowa Women in Safety conference and The Safety Rack, an organization that advocates for proper PPE and workwear for women in trades.

Amy is passionate about securing appropriate PPE for women in the workplace and begins by uncovering the underlying reasons behind this issue. She gives some all-to-common real-life examples of ill-fitting equipment and workwear for women and highlights how this impacts individuals, safety managers and entire organizations.

Unfortunately, women may be less likely to highlight these issues, and Amy explores why this is the case and what safety managers can do to ensure women have access to what they need on-site.

Amy demonstrates how inappropriate PPE can damage women’s psychological safety at work and impact organizations’ retention of female talent.

However, she is pleased with the progress being made and shares encouraging stories of women starting their own PPE manufacturing companies and explains what male co-workers can do to help.

…And don’t miss the colorful discussion about pink PPE!

Where Amy tests and reviews women's PPE clothing.

♪ [music] ♪ - [Mary] My name is Mary Conquest. I'm your host for "Safety Labs by Slice," the podcast where we explore the human side of safety to support safety professionals. We move past regulations and reportables to talk about the core skills of safety leadership, empathy, influence, trust, rapport, in other words, the soft skills that help you do the hard stuff.

♪ [music] ♪ Hi there. Welcome to "Safety Labs by Slice." Today, we're talking about and not talking about PPE and workwear designed for women and not designed for women.

So why am I waffling like this? Well, it's hard to talk about PPE designed for women without talking about PPE designed for men. And the issues that come up in discussions about women's PPE go far beyond the physical equipment itself. The topic touches on equity challenges, of course, but also worker retention, risk assessment, and a lot more.

Today's guest is a speaker, a YouTuber, and an advocate for women in trades. Amy Roosa is a senior risk control specialist at Gallagher. She has 18 years of safety experience in both construction and general industry settings. In that time, she's worked with the National Safety Council, where she helped to create the government and public sector division.

She's also a chapter vice president for the American Society of Safety Professionals. In 2018, Amy co-founded the Iowa Women in Safety Conference, which provides educational resources and networking to women in the safety profession. More recently, Amy founded The Safety Rack, an organization that advocates for proper PPE and workwear for women in trades.

She's a regular speaker at conferences on topics such as training and leadership. Amy joins us from Ames, Iowa. Welcome.

- [Amy] Hi.

- I'm excited about this topic, so let's get right on into it. Why isn't there enough appropriate PPE for women? What do you think is at the core of the problem?

- Perception that PPE is designed for men or it's unisex, and that's just what's out there. That's what the manufacturers are making and that's what the distributors are supplying. And nobody has stopped and said, "Hey, we need more than just male sizes and unisex sizes." And you've definitely seen over the last few years that is now being tackled in a more assertive way.

But for any woman that's been in manufacturing, or construction, or trucking, or welding, or electricians for decades, nobody stopped to think that this is a problem and it's a hidden hazard out there.

- So, on that note, I'm going to ask the obvious question, which is, in what ways are unisex or men's size small items inadequate? Can you give us maybe some examples of PPE that needs to be fitted differently?

- A great example is going to be shoes, right? The shrink it, pink it of shoes. And the problem there is for a long time, manufacturers just slim down the boot, but they never stop to think about the way we walk is different than the way men walk. The way the pressure of our feet hit the ground is different from guys' feet.

And so when you give us a shrink it, pink it boot and I wear them all day, man, are my feet just swollen and sore and they're not functional. Some of them might also not fit in the way that they need to fit for women in terms of being a little bit more narrow and a little bit more designed in the heel and the front of the toe, I can't remember what you call that.

But when you're wearing that around all day, now you also are uncomfortable cause your feet are sore, but you could easily drag that shoe. It could become a trip hazard because you're not picking up your feet because the weight of the boot is still designed for a man and not a woman.

- Another one that comes to mind for me immediately, too, would be gloves. So, on that note, like what about productivity? It seems to me that having women in ill-fitting equipment or workwear must affect the company's bottom line. I don't know that people think about it, but it must, right?

- I think it does. If you actually did like accident investigations involving like PPE being a factor, is it because you're handing gloves that are too big to a woman and she doesn't have the dexterity to work with them, so she's taking them off, then getting injured? Well, that's going to hit your recordables, but if you don't ask the right questions, you're not noticing that.

It's an issue. And yes, women's hands are a lot smaller, our finger sizes are narrow, and just in circumstance, so much smaller. So we need to have specifically designed products that's going to fit us and be functional at the same time.

- So you mentioned one dangerous workaround, which is to basically remove the PPE, take off the gloves. What other workarounds have you seen women use, or have you used on the job and just how safe are those workarounds?

- Oh, man. I've bought men's pants before for jobs I've done. I know women that just have thrown up their hands and are like, it's just easier for me to go buy men's jeans and roll them up. Well, if you're working around needing men's pants because you need the extra pockets, which is a whole other subject we can get into, if you're rolling them up, eventually, they're going to snag on something or drag.

If I'm wearing a safety vest that, you know, work gave me that's a unisex, it's going to catch on things. I was on the job site once that handed an extra large safety vest, and at the time I was a medium size for a woman's safety vest. Within 30 minutes on that job site, I actually caught the door handle to a big industrial door and it slammed me back and I ended up with bruises all down my right side from it.

So even when you're trying to adjust and make due with the PPE that's given to you, you're a walking hazard on a job site. And that's a problem. You know, think about the women that are working around conveyor belts packaging plants. If they get snagged on that conveyor belt, that PPE is going to drag them in.

- And what about career options? Like, it's going from something very small to something very big, but when a woman doesn't have proper PE, what are kind of the dominoes that fall in terms of her career opportunities?

- I think that's a really great question, and I think it's one where just in the conversation that I've had with women in the trades. I think having the PPE that doesn't fit you does actually hinder some job advancement, along with already being a female in the trades, you already got that against you as well as you're trying to break the glass ceiling.

So if I don't have the right PPE at work and I'm constantly wearing something that's oversized, I don't really feel confident in my job in the way I'm doing things and that's going to be displayed to everybody else around me, including the people that I need to influence to be able to be like, "She's really good at her job." They may know I'm really good at my job, but because I don't display it, it's going to have an effect when it comes time to apply for those promotions and be considered.

- And I would think that it wouldn't occur to them maybe that if you're not doing the job well, I don't think that the first reaction would be like, "Wow, I guess she has the wrong PPE." Like, I'm pretty sure the first reaction would be like, "I guess she's just not good at it. I guess she just doesn't fit in."

- She just doesn't want to, you know, move up the corporate ladder. She comes in, she does a great job, but she just seems disinterested. Well, maybe she's disinterested because she's not being given the proper tools. And women sometimes on these job sites we're not going to speak up and say, hey, you know, the gloves don't fit me. The boots don't fit me, the pants, all of that, because we don't want to make waves. You know, there's already this perception that a lot of women feel like because they might be the only woman on the job site, they don't want to raise their hand and say there's a problem because they're also paving the way for the next woman to be there.

They want to continue to have that job and that paycheck because that paycheck's a lot better than the retail job they were working at. It's putting food on the table for them and their families. So I'm not going to make waves if somebody goes, "Is everything okay?" "Oh, yeah, boss, everything's great. Thumbs up." I just want to do my job.

- Yeah. And especially I would think younger people, in general, but younger women have harder time speaking up when you're not only a woman, maybe the only one on the site, but you're also a bit of a greenhorn and, you know, it's tough.

- Yes. And if you're definitely younger, you already got a learning curve there, so you don't want to make those waves.

- So you've mentioned before that this is an issue that needs to be addressed in safety manager's risk assessment activities. Can you tell me a bit more about that?

- I think if you're in safety and risk management, it's really important that when you're looking at the overall program, if you're looking at a new job, if you're looking at the hierarchy of needs, that you're looking at that PPE piece and you're breaking it down by gender. And you're dissecting what those needs are for the job site and you're going out and you're actually, one, asking for feedback from the female employees.

And even if you hear, oh, no, everything's good, you're still going to go back and do research online and find the products that are relevant and maybe get a sample or two in. Or print it out, the spec sheet, and still go back and take it and be like, "Look, we're willing to buy this. Why don't you take a look at this and let me know what you think would be appropriate for us to buy you."

- Yeah. And they might actually also think, like, well, sure, it's fine, it works. Because they've never tried one that truly fits properly. And if they did try a sample, they'd be like, oh, this is much better. You touched on this a little bit, but what effect does ill-fitting equipment have on the psychological safety of women?

- I would say engagement on the job site, low morale, confidence, feeling like you fit into the culture, and you want to fit in. But if I got, again, items that are baggy on me that I'm constantly adjusting throughout the day or getting sned on, man, that's going to bring me down after a while and I may feel like my employer doesn't value me, so I may just leave and go find another job.

And I've heard women say that before, like some women didn't even know that the PPE was being that bothersome that it was a contributing factor along with everything else they were experiencing in that culture on a job site. Yeah. It's just one piece to the puzzle of everything else they're experiencing. And if we can fix that one piece, it might have a little bit of a ripple effect on that woman and that culture on a job site.

- So one of the issues is that distributors, by and large, don't see, or I have heard, that they don't see profit in PPE for women. Why do you think that is?

- You know, I've had this conversation a lot. This specific question comes up a lot. And dissecting it, it's kind of funny to me because they see it when I talk to some distributors, they're like, well, there's only like 4% in the market or 6% in, you know, construction or 10%. And I'm like, you look at women as a percentage and not the actual number that they are. And we're 8 million-plus strong right now in the United States when you look at the data.

So when you look at each individual woman probably needs anywhere from $500 to $1,000 just to get going on PPE, that's a lot of money that you're leaving on the table. But they go back to me and they say, "Well, nobody's bringing it up." And so the only thing that I can think of is, you know, your distributor comes up to you, to your purchaser and says, do you need anything?

Purchaser gets discounts by buying in bulk, right? So what are they going to buy the most of for their corporation? The large sizes for men or unisex because that's the bigger discount that they get. And then eval time, they get to go show their bosses how much they've saved the company instead of stopping and saying, for everything that we have for men, we want like items for women.

If every purchaser, if every company started to do that, then the distributors are going to be like, oh, we have a gap and we need to fill it, so now we're going to go push back on the manufacturers to start producing this so we don't lose business.

- Yeah. And some women have had enough. Those are good points. I hadn't thought about the purchasing, the motivation of the purchasing officer. You know, everyone wants to do a good job in terms of how they're measured. And if you're measured by how much money you save, then yeah, you're right, you're not going to be thinking about these other things.

- Can't fault the person for thinking that way, right, but at the same time, it's an unconscious bias because they're not thinking about, oh, I might need like for like, especially even if you have 1 woman, but what if you have 10 women at your job site, at your refinery, in your trucking company. Like, you need to be able to look at that and really dive into being an inclusive culture with your PPE program.

- So, some women have just had enough and started their own PPE manufacturing companies. How successful have those...first of all, how recent has that move come to your knowledge and how successful has it been?

- So I really started researching on this stuff back in about 2017/2018 when I was trying to find it. So I started seeing some brands pop up. It wasn't until I started the Iowa Women in Safety Conference that the conversation really just came to the forefront that this was an issue. And so I really started finding women around that time.

I would say since 2019, I've seen it really explode the women-owned businesses that are coming forward around the world, not even just in the U.S. There's a couple in Canada, I think there's two in Australia that are like, we're done. We're done having ill-fitted stuff, and so we're going to make stuff that's for us. And they are very inclusive brands all the way to maternity lines, which is something that we also forget about women have to work all the way up until their pregnancy.

They need maternity wear PPE. And it's just amazing to see their designs because they're functional, they're practical, but they're stylish. They're giving you that level of protection and confidence that you need to do your job and do it well.

- I hadn't thought about maturity either, but, of course, yeah. Not only do women come in different sizes, we change sizes depending on...

- Yes. Yes, we do.

- ...what else is going on in our lives? So when you bring up this topic to workers, distributors, or organizations, do you get pushback, and if so, what kind?

- You know, at the start I kind of did, but I've found a lot more employers are curious and open to it. I think as a country here in the United States, we've gone through a lot of changes in the last few years where we know with the shortages that we're going to see in construction and manufacturing that women can fill this void.

So if you're going to fill this void with women, do all this great job training, you need to be prepared to accept them into your organization. And one of the first things you need is to know who your vendors are and have it ready from before they even start on day one, having that product available. So I get a lot of questions.

I'm always happy to answer them in my email box, like, what do we do? How do we do this? Start with your purchaser, get with them, get with your distributor, like for like items, and then go from there building it. It's amazing how many allies, men-wise, I've seen come forward going, how do I make a stronger culture on my job site?

How do I retain the women that are really strong workers that are leaving? I can only solve one piece of that puzzle for them. They have to solve the rest. But I think if you can start by providing the properly fitted PPE, they're going to feel a little bit more valued to come forward and maybe talk about the other issues they're facing on the job site.

- One thing that frustrates me, and it might just be my own bugaboo is when I see something that's made for women, but it's basically just the same thing and they made it pink. Have you...

- Oh, yeah.

- It's funny I'm wearing some pink clothes today. Pink isn't my favorite color and I've always sort of been annoyed at that assumption, but you had a different perspective last time we talked. You said that pink can actually be quite popular. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that?

- Oh, yeah. This one really came to my attention a few years ago. I don't like pink either. I'm like it just kind of...I don't want to stand out any more than I already do on a job site. And when you give me all pink PPE, you're making me stand out even more when I just want to fit in. The other side to that is I've met people that have said, "Oh, yeah, we love the pink. We use it when the guys forget their PPE and they have to borrow PPE so they get all the pink stuff. That's how we know we'll get it back and they're going to bring their PPE next time."

So it's really kind of, to me, a negative thing that we're building this pink into the PPE because once some women feel they're going to stand out, other women love it and that's great, but then we use it as a punishment. Some companies do, not saying everybody, and is a negative. And then I've also seen other companies where the guys like wearing pink, especially in the month of October for Breast Cancer Awareness Month.

I think that's great too, but now I look at it, I'm like, okay, how when I see pink on the job site, and I see a lot of it, are we being inclusive or are we personally making a joke of it and excluding women in the process?

- Yeah. I think if you're using pink to punish men, the message you're giving women is that making them like you is a punishment. Like, that's a really terrible message, right?

- Yeah.

- But yeah, so it's not as simple as you said, preferences. And you said on some sites, like pink can actually be a really bright fluorescent color. It can be great for visibility depending on how it's done that some people like wearing it. So it's not that complicated...or it is complicated. And I guess safety professionals just have to think about all the different, like, how are you using it?

How are people reacting to it maybe?

- Don't just assume. Go out, watch, react, and listen. Don't just hand out the pink thinking like, yay, me, we have female empowerment. Here's the pink to everybody and then come to learn that, you know, there's a negative perception on your sight about it.

- And I think samples would help with that, right?

- Yes.

- Bring in the samples. See what people say. Yeah, no kidding.

- Yeah. Go to your distributors, ask for samples. Or at the next safety huddle, say, @Hey, we want to try something new. These are the options. How does everybody think about it?" And if nobody speaks up, say, "Hey, I'm going to wait to order these. My door is open. So if you don't want to speak up here, come talk to me in private about it."

- I think that's a good approach. So in the larger safety profession in the field, who's talking about this problem? Is it coming up...like you mentioned the Iowa Conference for Women, the Safety Conference? Is it coming up in general at conferences or trade shows that you see that are maybe not aimed at women, just safety conferences?

- I'm starting to see it more. And I think the reason for that is organizations like the ASSP have printed reports about women's safety with PPE as a focus. We have more studies coming out, more publications, and more op-eds from women saying this is an issue. We also have these female-owned companies that have started that have also helped pave that conversation by saying, "Hey, this was a problem.

So I started my own company," and then people are like, "Oh, didn't know this was a problem." And so definitely over the last few years, you're seeing this progression of it being more and more of a conversation. I'm doing three fashion shows this year at different conferences that are not safety-related. One being a construction conference and one being a women's empowerment conference.

Because those topics are so important to them, they want me to come in, speak about it, and then we do a fashion show where we display the different types of women's PPE so that everybody can actually see it and see how it fits compared to men's sizes. So, it's just creating that bigger awareness and I just love that I'm seeing it so much in the last couple of years.

- Yeah. I would think even just a booth at a trade show is doing something. Whether someone buys it or no matter how they think about it, they at least see it and consider it. And a demonstration too, you could sort of show, like, this is how dextrous I can be in men's versus something that properly fits me.

- Yeah. And that's why I have The Safety Rack is for that purpose of being able to show, this is how it works on me, this is how it fits, and it's functional, right? So that if we're going to go spend money on PPE because, unfortunately, women disproportionately spend more money on PPE out of pocket than men, they need to know that if they're going to invest in a $80 FR flame-resistant shirt, that it's going to work for them.

- So we've got listeners now in over 50 countries. So I know that you're most familiar with the context in the U.S., but have you heard about, or do you know about any different approaches to women's PPE and safety in other countries, or is it kind of all the same?

- Well, it's part of what I've been researching and I haven't really done a good job researching it. I know a lot of the women brands around the globe that have sorted up. I'm speaking to one lady that is starting her own company over in the UK. I know Covergalls over in Canada, so I know it's still a problem. And I would say that taking an educated guess, it's probably the same that we're facing here in America too, because if we here in America have such a large problem, we're probably seeing it overseas too.

The difference that I see though is that the regulations are a little bit different in other countries to where maybe it might not be as progressive of a problem. Mostly I'm going to say, like...and somebody can always get me on LinkedIn and say that I'm wrong, please do, I'd say that Australia and the European nations might actually have more products readily available.

And that's just from my observations on LinkedIn and Instagram where I follow a lot of women in the trades and I see them wearing properly fitted gear. And I'm like, "Oh my goodness, you're always posting in this. So you obviously are getting it somehow from your employer."

- Well, good. I mean, yes, of course, it's going to be a global problem, but it's good to hear that people are also trying to solve it all over the place. You have some creative ideas about how safety managers can work within their organizations to get the budget for women's PPE. You want to tell us a little bit about that?

- Oh, now I got to remember that conversation. I think first, get with your purchaser and get with your management team, and say, you know, like for like again. This is different conversations that we have to have from talking to the employee that it's affecting to talking to the purchaser and then making sure you're involved with your purchaser in that conversation to the distributor.

That way you can head off any of the shoulder shrugs and the, well, that's just what we offered. Okay. Well, if you want my business, you're going to have to start offering like-for-like items. Plain and simple. And you can't tell me you can't find them because I have a whole rack behind me and a whole pile on my floor behind me of being able to find these manufacturers. So you as a distributor need to just bring them into your house and get them set up.

- This is, again, on a more global level, what do you think it's going to take to change the situation?

- Oh, regulation. It's going to be a conservative effort among everybody from professional societies like the American Society of Safety Professionals to OSHA and NIOSH to government regulation anywhere just coming out and saying, we need to make a change, especially by probably 2030 when we know there's going to be such a severe shortage of workers in certain trades.

So the sooner any company can start being proactive, the better to get ahead of it. But if you're not going to get ahead of it, you're probably going to see in the next few years some aggressive legislation and recommendations coming out of different government bodies.

- How do you think...yeah, everyone kind of knows, I think or seems to be in the zeitgeist right now that worker retention is going to be a problem. I think a lot of it has to do with the boomers retiring, but we're already starting to see shortages. And so do you think addressing this would help?

- Yeah. I think addressing it does help, again, as one piece to the overall culture, right? Like, a lot of companies still have to address other pieces to this so that they have the appropriate domino effect that they're looking for. I'm just trying to address this one domino so that, you know, hey, raise awareness that you have such a great reputation for retaining women because you provide them with properly fitted PPE.

Because your culture is set up to be psychologically safe for them and that you value them, you kind of meet those first three things and you're going to keep that retention because that's the biggest thing that I think employers want right now. They want retention. They're not getting that right now because if you don't treat your employees right or they don't feel valued, they're going to jump ship.

There's hundreds of studies and articles already on that subject. So get out...actually go out and observe your work area and just observe. Don't do it for an hour. Do it for a whole afternoon. Shut off your phone, say you're out of office, and go work alongside these women. Go work along your men and talk to them about these issues. And look at where the gaps are in your program, where the gaps are in your culture, and then make a plan to get them closed up and do it quickly.

- You mentioned the male workers, what about male trades workers? I mean, we're mostly talking about trades, but, of course, there's PPE and workwear for all kinds of different industries. But do the male workers have a role in the solution of this problem?

- Alliedship. Being an ally and accepting women into the trades. And I think there's a healthy amount of that. I know anywhere I've gone from the male workers in the field, I've never really experienced a problem. Only maybe a handful of times. So having male allies that can speak up for you when you don't feel comfortable, that can be there to partner with you, not doing the white knight thing, but being proactive, and saying, "Hey, I got you and I want to make sure you feel comfortable and inclusive within our safety culture, within our work culture. What do you need from me to be safe while you're working?"

And when they come across the comments of, well, that's what it is, or the misogynistic comments even that they're standing up and saying something because we're changing at such a rapid pace that I think there's this little bit of old-school mentality still out there that needs to just be shattered. Women want to come to work, they want to do a job just like a guy does.

And we want to get paid the same as well, which is, you know, part of the reason why women go into trades. The other part is they genuinely like doing that stuff. The welding, the electrician stuff. They don't want to be in a retailer box store working, that's not for them. They want to be out doing the grunt work, as we call it, just like the guys. I grew up in my dad's tow shop.

When I was a little girl, I would vacuum out cars for candy bars. Great child labor and way to pay. But I grew up in my dad's tow shop and then later after my dad sold that, he was a trucker and he was a biker. And so I grew up loving those things, the shop life, being around those kinds of people.

They were my people. And so when I turned 18 and I went and got a job at a box store and got a job waitressing, I realized really fast that was not for me. That's not the environment I want to be in. I want to be in a construction site or a manufacturing site, just joking around with everybody and having a good time and getting my hands dirty, and being a problem solver.

And so I gotta still feel safe at the end of the day going in it because as a woman, I'm aware of not only the psychological hazards, but the physical hazards that await me. And I don't need a man making it any worse.

- I think, in general, a lot of men can do a lot by just speaking up to other men when they hear them say something that's maybe a bit ignorant, like, "Oh, why does she get special equipment?" It's like, "Well, it's not special."

- You get special equipment too because you're a guy, so you have to have properly fitted PPE.

- Yeah. So are you hopeful for a change? How long do you think it will take people to really sort of universally understand this kind of issue?

- Oh, wow. If I could answer that, I'd go grab a lottery ticket right now. You know, just from what I've seen over the last few years, I think we're trending in the right direction. And part of my mission and part of the reason why I'm speaking up and doing what I'm doing is to continue being louder and getting more people to be loud about this subject because it is so important. So I'm hopeful that, you know, in the next 10 years, we're going to see a bigger change.

In the next five years, I would like us to be more aggressive as a culture as a society to make these changes more permanent at a rapid pace. If COVID has done anything, it has proven that we can make change very fast. So this is such a simple thing to change within your corporation that there's no excuse for you not to do it.

- Yeah. As you said, it's hard to solve the whole puzzle, but this one piece is fairly straightforward.

- Yep.

- I can't believe it. We're almost out of time, but I have some questions that I do ask every guest. So, the first one is the University of Amy. It changes depending on the guest. Where would you focus...if you were to develop curriculum for tomorrow's safety professionals if you were training them, where would you focus their human skills training? So I'm not talking technical skills, but core skills, soft skills, that kind of thing.

- Empathy, I think, and I've been at fault for this. We get so stuck on policy and procedure that we sometimes forget that we're keeping humans safe. And every human is different, every employee is different, every accident investigation is different.

And we need to have empathy in our job to really understand human nature and human behavior.

- Good. And if you could go back in time to the beginning of your safety career and you could give one piece of advice to young Amy, what do you think that would be?

- That I'm going to sell and I'm going to fail a lot along the way, and those are going to give me the greatest leaps and bounds in my career.

- Good.

- And that it's okay to fail, you know?

- Yeah. Yeah, of course. So how can our listeners learn more about what we've talked about today? Are there books? I'm sure there's websites, where should they go?

- I'm on The Safety Rack. So I'm on Instagram and I'm on YouTube under The Safety Rack, where I take women's PPE clothing and I test it for several months. I wear it, I put it to the test, and I give my honest reviews in a very proactive way of those products. And I am putting out more content every day. And then I'm on LinkedIn as well sharing content from my pages along with other resources that I'm finding.

I'm trying to just share it all. So if you want to follow me on those, I'd greatly appreciate that.

- And if someone wants to reach out, what's the best way to do that?

- Linkedin or Instagram would be the two best ways to do it.

- Okay. Great. Well, that's our episode for this week. Thanks to everyone who listens, shares, or reviews our podcast. It really helps us to reach more safety professionals and keep important discussions like this going. And thank you, Amy, for your perspective and the work you do to support women in safety.

- Thank you, Mary.

- As always, my thanks to the "Safety Labs by Slice" team for all your hard work. That's all for today. Bye for now. Safety Labs is created by Slice, the only safety knife on the market with a finger-friendly blade. Find us at sliceproducts.com. Until next time, stay safe.