Connected Conversations For Safer Workplaces

In this episode, Mary Conquest speaks with Angelina Badri, the founder of the Universal Safety Wellness consultancy. Her holistic approach and genuine care for people empower leaders and frontline workers to reduce incidents and achieve workplace safety excellence collaboratively.

In this compassionate interview, Angelina describes how working with individuals can solve systemic safety issues, with connected conversations being the key to success.

Unusually for a safety consultant, she focuses on frontline workers, and Angelina explains to safety professionals how they can improve workplace safety through meaningful, honest and respectful conversations.

Using many real-life examples from her 15 years in safety, Angelina explores the importance of individual habits and motivation, communicating priorities and information, and celebrating the process as well as the outcome.

She demonstrates the power of connected conversations and gives practical guidance on building these into your daily work lives. Angelina helps turn uncomfortable conversations into good conversations and reveals the best time to make these interventions.

Her passion and care shine throughout this empowering episode as she urges safety professionals to maximize the power of storytelling. Angelina connects effortlessly with her audience and tells powerful stories throughout.

♪ [music] ♪ - [Mary] My name is Mary Conquest. I'm your host for "Safety Labs by Slice," the podcast where we explore the human side of safety to support safety professionals. We move past regulations and reportables to talk about the core skills of safety leadership, empathy, influence, trust, rapport, in other words, the soft skills that help you do the hard stuff.

♪ [music] ♪ Hi there. Welcome to "Safety Labs by Slice." Lots of safety consultants work with the leadership of an organization to help them improve their safety systems. Our guest today does that, but she also focuses on working with people on the frontlines.

Today, we're going to discuss how she approaches this work and the skill that helps everyone, no matter what their position is, to improve company performance and lower injury rates. Angelina Badri is the founder and director of Universal Safety Wellness, and has been successfully supporting businesses for over 15 years. Her clients include organizations in the mining, drilling, refining, construction, storing, and transportation industries.

Her diverse experience helps her support businesses so they can overcome complex challenges, achieve measurable success, and professional growth. Angelina's holistic approach empowers leaders and frontline workers to achieve workplace excellence without any permanent, non-fatal, or fatal injuries. She supports the reduction of workplace incidents and injuries by helping organizations to strengthen their capabilities and to become their own first and last line of defense.

Her hands-on approach and genuine care for the people she helps fuels her success. Angelina joins us from Brisbane. Welcome.

- [Angelina] Hello. Thank you. God, I was like, that sounds good when someone else introduces you.

- It always does. It always does.

- I want to kind of clap for myself and be, like, well.

- Okay. So the problems that you address are systemic. But when we spoke before, you mentioned that your approach to tackling those systemic issues is often to work with individuals. Why is that?

- So what I find is that each of us have such diverse backgrounds, experiences, capabilities, and many people take a very genetic approach and think that there's a one answer fits all. But what I find is that when I'm working with organizations at varied levels, so from the board with the executives through to the frontline, everyone has a different story to tell and different experiences.

And, you know, they can identify some biases or, you know, even past events that have really shaped their thinking. And unfortunately, sometimes that thinking can be very limiting. So I like to have connected conversations to really understand individuals and their story. Where is it that they've come from? What are the experiences? And really the factors that have led them to making the decisions that they make, either from an executive point of view and they're putting in strategies or someone on the front line that has been thrown into a position and is just doing what they've seen others do and that's all they know.

- So speaking of the frontline, you like to work with, and to some degree, focus on workers on the frontline.

- Yeah.

- Why do you think that's a good approach?

- For me, I'm a big advocate really educating people, understanding that why. And what I find that, unfortunately, those that are getting injured in these high-risk environments are those in the frontline, right? Those people that are experienced to that line of fire, the exposure of risk. So, for me, I'm really passionate in helping them understand and really gain more clarity on how they need to strengthen their decision-making.

How they strengthen their emotional intelligence. How they better communicate, what does good practice look like? What I'm finding, unfortunately, is that not many people really have an understanding. They usually share with me, well, you know, Angela, I've just mimicked those before me. And I'm sad to say those before them didn't necessarily do a good job. And they tend to, unfortunately, especially, you know, within Australia in the injuries that we've been having, people then just kind of go in blindly and do a job without really getting an understanding of the why.

Why is that a critical control? Why is that important? Why should we be, you know, ensuring that we follow certain steps in a certain sequence? So really, there's been a concept of thinking that's been removed, unfortunately.

- Yeah. So you've mentioned then before not knowing what good looks like. And I was going to ask you, how does this manifest? And this is exactly what you're telling me, right, just in these different...

- Absolutely. And so, in many ways, right? I think it's, once again, people's own comfort in terms of what they think good looks like. So I'll give you an example. I remember, you know, I'm always one that wants the best for everyone. I always say be the standard that others aspire to be. But, unfortunately, I've had these conversations and when getting to understand people's motivations and what drives them and what good looks like for them, I'll be having conversations and they'll say to me, "Man, Ang, you're so harsh."

You're telling us that these are areas we can improve. And, you know, because I'm a very honest person in terms of feedback, like in a positive way in terms of how can we improve and what does that exactly look like. And many times I'll get a response of, "Well, if you think that we're not necessarily doing that great, You should see the contractors that were on site." Like, we're doing better than them, or, hey, we're doing better than this company. They've had fatalities.

We're not so bad. So, interestingly, when people talk about what does good look like, they tend to think of themselves and being in this space that's good because they're benchmarking themselves against really poor performers. And to me, that blows my mind. I don't pat pat myself on the back going, yay, you're doing all right because, you know, the people next door have had a shocking incident rate, but you're close to being, you know, the same in many ways.

- So, on the frontline, you had talked before about the importance of habits. What's the importance of habits and motivation?

- Yeah. So for me, I love to start conversations around understanding people's motivation because that then really can tell me how it is that they form certain habits. So for example, when people are motivated by a tight schedule, deadlines, priorities, that really shapes their decision-making and then the habits they form.

So are they taking continuous shortcuts? Have they conditioned themselves to really have a risk tolerance that isn't in the right place? So for example, we've taken the shortcuts because we've made that deadline and it's okay then to kind of take these controls out of the equation because we've done so really, you know, with a fine margin of not hurting someone, but that's okay.

So you can actually...I tend to tell everyone when I go to a site, if you stand there for five minutes, don't have conversations, but just make observations. You can see the habits people form. You know, from the simplest things of putting on your PPE, filling out your documents. If you watch someone in their natural state just go and do their job, you see the habits that they've formed, either it be the shortcuts or whatever practices.

And that's a dangerous space because, you know, if you've really conditioned yourself and created these habits that aren't helpful, it takes a fair bit of work to then change that. Because you think about it, right, our age, how many years have we spent doing the same thing? It takes time to create those habits and it takes time to break them.

- Yeah. It's kind of like they're a manifestation of the priorities and they may not even have been the priorities of that worker to start with, but they're the priorities of the organization, at least what the worker has understood of the priorities of the organization.

- Yes. And I think it's unfortunate in the sense of we then don't communicate well when it comes to those priorities. So, for example, like I said, I'm a big advocate with working with the frontline because they are so powerful as well in terms of shaping that outcome of what good looks like. In the instance of, for example, if someone then comes to a site and gives a directive, well, we need to do this and it needs to be done within an hour.

If you have the people that are on the tools and in the frontline saying, we can achieve the end result of that task, but to do it safely and effectively, it actually takes an hour and a half. And these are the things we need to do and this is why. You rarely get pushback in the terms of people saying, "No, that's not good enough." But there's an assumption.

And people have these perceptions, especially from a management standpoint that, well, I just assumed it took this long, or I didn't realize that you had to do A, B, C, and D. I'm thinking of it from an umbrella perspective. And yes, I have this target of what I want done, but the details really don't get spoken about. But when people get better at communicating what they need, what it'll take to do that job safely and effectively, that helps change the whole dynamic.

So we need to get better at that whole storytelling and connected conversations is really important to also support the culture that's been formed.

- That's a weird pause. I had a thought and I can't remember. Please edit it out. So what you're finding though is that when people are able to communicate these issues, the pressures or whatever the details, and I'm talking about someone on the frontline saying, no, I'm sorry, if you want it done safely, it will take longer, for example. There's less pushback than they anticipate.

Are they surprised with...

- Yeah, I think also, it's depending on how they have those conversations. So, for example, I've seen some people in the frontline going, "Well, that's crap. And we can't do that. And you guys push us to do things and take risks." And, you know, they're throwing all of these statements. And many of them are true in terms of the emotion attached or how they feel, but they're not actually getting, I guess, amongst it in the forward planning to say, okay, well, what we actually need to do the job on the front end is time to mobilize, time to get the equipment in place, time to do our pre-start.

This, this, this, this is what it takes for us to do the job and this is a realistic timeframe. So it's about having those conversations in a meaningful way that's not just saying, "Well, what do you know?" And you, guys, you know, in terms of the manager team are always coming here and telling us how to do things and cutting our time short. And so it's really, like, you know, I've seen it, unfortunately, so many times, and it can be very challenging when you've been on a site and you feel like you've got all this pressure, whether that's perceived or not to do a job and then you have someone that doesn't seem supportive because they're telling you something that you may realize is not necessarily realistic, but how are they communicating.

And what I find, you know, especially with people at the frontline, which I appreciate, they want to do a good job. They want to get the job done. They want to be helpful. Not many people want to say, "No, I can't do that." They want to see that outcome. But what we don't talk about enough, and I see this a lot even in management meetings and board meetings, we don't talk about the journey. And we don't celebrate the fact that we had adequate planning.

We engaged with the right amount of people from different levels in the organization. We had effective review sessions. We continue to communicate. All of these things were fantastic and we support and we got the outcome we wanted. Unfortunately, what happens many times is great, we succeeded, then job was done. But sometimes there were multiple shortcuts that were taken to get that job done.

So we celebrate an outcome and a result, but we need to really be scriptive in terms of giving time and acknowledging what those triggers or those actions were that were taken in a positive manner that got us there.

- So celebrating the process as much as celebrating the outcome.

- Absolutely. Yep. Absolutely.

- If it was a good process.

- Yes. Yes.

- Because it was a good one.

- Because then we give people the opportunity to really have an understanding. So, for example, as I mentioned, I've been in meetings and when I'm talking about, oh, yeah, well, because of these pressures or because of foreplanning, these are some of the things that had to be done. You know, and it added, you know, stress on a lot of people. It added all of these things. And many people are oblivious to it, to be honest. Like, even in terms of having conversations, I really am excited when people get excited about the interactions in businesses because it can be challenging.

So I'll have executives or senior managers and we will have a round table discussion and they'll talk about, you know, the encouragement of getting out to site and having, you know, those conversations and encouraging the work people are doing. And then I kind of smile because I hear of then the interactions and it's very much, "Hey, Mary, how'd you ... Are you doing good? Okay, great. Thanks."

And then they, "Wow, I did a great job. That was a great conversation." And for them, they then, unfortunately, get this false perception that things are well, people are doing fine, their well-being is okay, they're not struggling, they don't need support. But to have those conversations, as I mentioned before, and to really sit there and be a storyteller and share that why, and talk about, you know, the hardship and put it in your perspective.

Like, I've been to sites and sometimes I laugh because I'm like, I feel like I'm the only one complaining. It's hot as hell. I don't know how you work out here. You know, what the hell? I'm tired. This is exhausting. But then you get people feeling comfortable to want to share with you and go, "Well, yeah, you know what, Ang? Yeah, it's a bit challenging. We don't have enough areas where we can have a break in the shade. Our, you know, schedules and our rotation is so tight."

Our planning is, you know, in a way that's done so that we do feel affected. And then it gives you the opportunity to go, "Okay, well, let's talk about then your schedule. How do you plan your day? Are you doing, you know, most of the heavy lifting, so to speak, in the hours where it's cooler?" Like, how do we look at how you work in a way that we're not negatively impacting your well-being? Because, unfortunately, that's what I'm finding more and more of.

There's this, you know, outward look of how people are doing, but when you have those conversations, people are struggling in the workplace. Their mental and emotional and physical well-being is really not in a place where it should be. And they don't tend to share their struggles. And sadly, it ends up with more repeated cases of people being negatively impacted. The suicide rate in this industry is...you know, it's unfortunate and it's crazy, but we need to be able to have more proactive measures and conversations and activities to really help people not have to be in this state of having to survive in their workplace, but enjoying what they do, thriving because it should be something that we enjoy doing.

We spend so much of our lives at a workplace that, you know, if you ever meet me out on a side, you'll hear laughing. You'll hear me having fun because it should be the case.

- I was thinking that that's kind of a result of divorcing celebrating outcomes instead of processes. So what happens is, you know, you get the outcome you wanted and you celebrate that and management doesn't realize that there were a bunch of shortcuts taken. And so that becomes the new norm.

They think, "Oh, well we could obviously do this in this short timeframe." And unless they've heard those stories, then they assume that it's all good, right?

- Absolutely. You're on the money. It was interesting I was out, I do a lot of motivational speaking at these work sites. There can be a lot of challenging environments and organizational cultures that have caused a lot of unease in people. And the workforce, no fault of their own in a sense, can get to that point of frustration, feeling like they're not being heard.

And it was interesting, as I was doing these sessions, and they were frontline leaders, so your supervisors, superintendents, people that have the ability to influence others. And we were having these honest conversations and talking about performance and those comments were raised, right? Like, oh, well, you know, the tasks that we get done, it's unrealistic. It's this.

And then I'm always interested because I then ask, "Well, how did you have a conversation about it? What managers hear and what I see when I go with them in the coaching session is you're just saying, "Yep, the job is going well. You've got everything in place." But now when I have an honest conversation with you, you're telling me that the piece of equipment that you're doing the job it's not fit for purpose, basically, right?

You're using a loader for something that you should be using another piece of equipment for because you don't have the availability of that at the moment, or because of scheduling, because of all these other things, but yet that piece of information isn't shared. And at the end of the day, if people are informing others, those decision-makers that, hey, we can't do this because we don't have fit-for-purpose equipment.

We don't have the tools in place. We don't have adequate controls in place. They then have the means to put measures in place so that we're not playing Russian roulette basically. And sadly, on, you know, some sites, and I've had these honest conversations with, you know, executives and said, unfortunately, on your site, it's not an if, but it's a when that someone, unfortunately, will be injured because I can see the practices, I can see the accepted norms, the risk taking.

And it's, unfortunately, something that's become systemic here in the way that you operate. I always say to people, you know, when you're in a business, how do you describe how you do business? The way we work here is. And I said, if people are having this honest conversation with me and saying, "Well, we take shortcuts. We don't give a shit. We just do what it takes." I go, "That's not a very good place to operate in."

- A lot of this is about assumptions as well, right? Like, assuming that other people know things that you know from your level, whether that's frontline or management or executive. So, you talk about connected conversations. How would you define a connected conversation as opposed to an unconnected...a disconnected conversation?

- Yeah, sure. For me, it's about demonstrating genuine care and compassion. So when you have a conversation with someone, you are really giving them the time and the space and being open and vulnerable, and transparent with them. So I always think about storytelling, right? Getting to know someone and sharing something about you with them. Because I find in so many cases, someone will come up and have a conversation and they're sitting there doing this

[vocalization] on a phone. I'm paying attention to you, but I'm actually doing something else. Well, what you're showing me is you don't care. You don't even know me. And, for example, I remember working on...I was on location and one of the roughnecks on a rig came up to me. And I knew these guys.

I knew, you know, the things they did on their time off. I invested in getting to know them and their story. And one individual came up to me and was so irritated, and I was like, "Whoa, whoa, what happened? Okay, tell me what's going on." And he was so agitated and just put off because he had said that one of the senior managers had come to location and had a conversation with him, but introduced himself and had a conversation like he had never met him before, but it was the sixth time.

And so for him, he didn't feel valued, right? You're doing these 12-hour days and I've spent 1 hour on the rig floor trying to, you know, see what it's like to be in that position. And it is a hard job. I could never do it. And I commend anyone that can do those physical jobs. And so for him, he was like, I bust my ass. I put myself at risk.

We physically do this job for them to, you know, make money and he can't even take the time to remember my name or something about me? And so for me, it's about that whole connected conversation is giving someone that space and actually valuing them and their story. You know, what is it that brings you to want to be on this site? You know, what is it that motivates you? What are your challenges?

And with that, you're better able to really build more of that safety well-being, that holistic well-being that I talk about. You know, it makes me laugh sometimes when I go to locations and people are like, "Oh, I can't stop telling you personal private things. It's like a session with a psychologist and I need to shut up." Because they're allowed to feel that there's someone that actually cares and wants to know. Because for me, one of the reasons I've been successful with the jobs I've done is because I genuinely care when I have these connected conversations to determine someone's state of being.

Because even though...and I've worked with many people that have had years and years and years experience in the field, and they can be the technical expert, their mind might be clouded one day, right? They've got family issues. A child that's unwell. They themselves might have health issues. And that does consume your mind. You're either worried about things.

You're thinking of things. You're scheduling things. And even though you're present on that work site, you're exposing yourself to a line of fire. You technically know you need to have a permit to work. You should be isolating and doing all these things. It just becomes a cloud where that suddenly just gets removed from your mindset. So for me, having these conversations allows me to understand where exactly people are at and what ways we as individuals and organizations should be helping these people to better that state that they're in, to support them then be safer in that work environment.

- You start by having these connected conversations to get to know people, and you're talking about the frontline, but I imagine this is also true for all levels, except maybe the management.

- Yep. Absolutely.

- The trick I would think, though, is for them to be able to have those conversations after you've left. So how do you go about teaching them to cultivate that level of conversation? Like, how do you bring that about?

- Yep. So I do a fair bit of coaching. And for me, it's about getting in that work environment with that individual and sharing the examples of what those conversations are like. Because, you know, I understand some people's hesitation. I've met some people that said, "Ang, I can't talk to that manager. That's a manager."

Or they'll be in a room...I remember working in even a corporate office and I was on the level with the executives and the CEO and we had a shared kitchenette. And so I'm there making my lunch and the CEO walked in and some people just left without making their lunch. And I was dumbfounded because I'm like, "Hey, how you doing? What's for lunch? What's on the menu?" You know, we're all human. And I went to these people after, I'm like, "What happened? You just left."

And they're like, oh, well, that was the CEO and makes me nervous and all of this. So it's about understanding that we all, yes, have a value to add in terms of where you are in the organization, but we're all human. And people actually enjoy having a conversation. It's about your approach. If you go up to someone, introduce yourself, tell them a little bit about, you know, the position you're in, what you've been doing, and reciprocate that in terms of showing interest in what they're doing, you're able to spark up a conversation.

But many people put these walls, these barriers in front of them because of either fear or, you know, especially some people go, "Well, if I say the wrong things, there's ramification." Or, you know, I'm not approachable in a certain way, that could be my job. Everyone, unfortunately, when I've gone around and done many workshops and roadshows and I ask people what motivates them, one thing that comes up, no matter where I've traveled, no matter who I'm in front of, is fear.

Fear is a big motivator. Fear to lose my job. Fear to look stupid, inadequate. But we need to really use that fear in a sense to allow you to push yourself out of your comfort zone. Because also, the more we do this in terms of having these conversations, the better you get at it. I've had clumsy conversations and walked away and gone, "Oh my God, that was embarrassing."

Have a laugh at myself. And then the next day when I see that person, laugh about it and go, "oh my God, you know, when I had that conversation with you, man, I stuttered. It was like embarrassing." And it's funny because a lot of them in terms of their response was, "You know what? I didn't even realize. I actually appreciated that you came up and introduced yourself. You know, not many people come up to me and have the conversations and it's actually really nice to feel like I'm getting in amongst it with people."

So we need to really just be able to approach someone, have a conversation without a sense of fear, be honest, be vulnerable and transparent because there's so much power in that. Like, I've even coached executives that they themselves say to me, "Ang, I'm really uncomfortable in terms of speaking in front of crowds."

Or, "You know, I'm an introvert. I don't necessarily talk like you do, or, you know, have the vocabulary the way that you speak and motivate." But that's okay. It's okay to be you, but there's something very powerful in also sharing that with others. So I had a session with an executive once and we were having, you know, a deep dive in terms of their characteristics, you know, how they approach people.

And there were, you know, a lot of people that got agitated because they felt that there was never any engagement. And so for them, their assumption is, well, they think they're better than us. You know, we are the scum. There's this hierarchy and people don't talk to us down here because we're the workers. But, unfortunately, it was because they had their own issues in terms of, you know, fear. I'm an introvert.

I don't know how to communicate. And then it was astonishing because then the next time they went and had a discussion with their team, they shared that. They said, "You know, I hope that you don't think that I purposely choose to not engage with you. I'm actually an introvert and I'm working on getting better at speaking. So, I hope that you take the time and come up and have a personal conversation with me. I really thrive with getting to hear about what it is you're doing and the ways that you guys are, you know, getting the job done and what it is that I can do to help you."

And it was interesting because then workers were like, "Oh, I didn't even know that about them. I just thought they thought they were a holier than God."

- Yeah. Well, I think assumptions and perceptions play a lot into it. I mean, I'm sure that there are some workplaces where, you know, management does think they're better than...or, you know, I mean, there are some places, of course, and some people where this sort of fear is justified. But I imagine, and you could tell me how often that most of the time it's just we fill in the blanks.

If there's a blank, we fill it in with our assumptions.

- Yeah. Absolutely.

- And so how do you...so you coach them. Do you coach people on the frontline as well?

- Yes. Yep. Yeah. So, I find for me, an important thing and something that I value is really supporting the individuals that are exposed to the line of fire and helping them to better communicate. So even, you know, I've helped people that have taken a step change in their career and I really feel for them because part of what I do as well is providing support as an executive advisor or consultant. So I go into a lot of businesses that say to me, Ang, you know, we're frustrated because, unfortunately, when it comes having conversations around safety, it's very negative, right?

It's a non-conformance. It's a regulatory notice that was issued to me. And businesses feel that they're doing so much in that safety space, but they're always getting hammered. That's not right. This is wrong. You need to do this better. And so what I appreciate is, because I do have that honest approach, the willingness to want to help support people, I tend to get brought in to do baseline assessments.

And so what I find when I do these within organizations is you're able to then find their pain points and where they're actually at. And one thing that I notice, in particular, especially when then you look at where a lot of the incidents are, and it can be a mixed bag, right? Operators dealing with contractors. The majority of, unfortunately, incidents that occur is contractors, but they're also doing a lot of the specialized work, so it's understandable, right?

When you look at who's doing the work exposed to the line of fire, it's them. And so when I go around and I then do interviews, I go and have observations, I actually get amongst it with the crew, get high boots on and go to the work face, I can understand why they struggle sometimes. So, I then am in a car, let's say, a light vehicle with a supervisor heading to location, and then I have those conversations to understand the decision making, a bit about them in terms of their personal journey.

And they'll share with me that, you know, they were identified as a really great operator, which they are. And they then got given the opportunity to have a step change, so they got promoted. Fantastic, right? Reward and recognition. Brilliant. But, unfortunately, what a lot of businesses don't do is support that step change. They don't help them to give them the tools, the understanding of what it means to now be a supervisor or a superintendent, whatever role they're in.

And so for me, as I'm then having this understanding of their journey and getting insight in terms of, "Okay, well, then how did you learn how to do the job that you're in?" Because it's a different scope of work. You have a different amount of responsibility and it is a very heavy role in terms of responsibility. They just tell me, "Well, Ang, I'm really mimicking what the guy before me did."

And which is really unfortunate because sometimes I'm like, "Well, he was not that great." So even the mannerisms, right? The way that they then speak to people, this whole, I'm going to degrade you, I'm going to treat you like shit. I'm here to have a bit of a godly complex because I'm the operator and you're the contractor. It's not an effective way to manage.

So for me, having these conversations and then observing and questioning like, well, what was the process of your planning? Where was your risk management you know, evaluation that you did? Where are their capabilities? Did you review their processes? It's challenging because they say, "Well, I didn't know I had to do that." And so for me, I find that if you then empower them with that understanding and the ability to really be supported and nurture their development, wow, performance just changes so much.

Not only with that individual, their capabilities, their well-being, but there's a massive flow-on effect with the greater team.

- So do you think it's then the organization's responsibility to sort of foresee the fact that when someone changes levels and steps into a very different kind of role that they should by default be providing...

- Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Unfortunately, it was a lot more stressful as well for people when we had, you know, the first of COVID-19 hit, the pandemic, because a lot of businesses they streamlined. They got rid of a lot of people, went lean, and then went even through the process of change management without doing it very well.

So they gave people more responsibility, more tasks to do with also not giving them that support. And for some reason, unfortunately, and when I say it, everyone kind of agrees with me, when it comes to organizations and their appetite for safety and investing in it in terms of the funds, it's usually one of the things that gets targeted when they look at budget cuts. The next thing is training.

So, unfortunately, there's a partnership between the two that we need organizations to change their thinking around. Because one of the things...and I say it multiple times, if you invest in the development of your people, you empower them, you have a workforce that have the greater ability to be high-performance leaders, but, unfortunately, a lot of organizations, once again, don't really know what that looks like.

I see some businesses try and they'll say to me, "Well, Ang, we sent them to do cert. I sent them on a course." Like a one-day course that's now meant to make them, you know, become an exceptional leader. That's a big ask. We need to see and understand that it's a process of nurturing someone's development. Because I'll come back to the start of our conversation about it's the individual and we all come with different experience and capabilities.

So you and I may approach something and need very different types of training because you excel because of your experience in an area that I may be weak on and vice versa. So it's what exactly do we need as that individual? What personal development plan do we create to support that person? And it could be decision-making, it could be effective communication.

There's so many things that really holistically are factors that enable us to be strong leaders. So one of the areas, yeah, I do encourage businesses to do is look at the learning and development parts of their business and identify what that looks like to nurture and create an empowered workforce.

- I can see how someone just stepping into management would think, "Well, I'm waiting for them to tell me what to do." And then the people above them saying, "Well, we were waiting to hear any questions. We said, do you have any questions?" But they don't know what questions to ask.

- Spot on. I swear you must have been recently sitting in on a conversation I had. One of my clients even, you know, was looking at changing the structure of their health safety training team, and obviously went through some changes, looked to mature, so wanted to bring in a manager, did so. And then it was interesting because then having the conversation with the manager, there's a business strategy, but for them, they were also looking for the business plan for them to execute, when the expectation was that they'd be brought on to also help develop that plan.

So once again, their experience, right? If you come from operating with very mature organizations, a lot's in place, to be honest. Like, I've seen two different streams of people and their capabilities. The one that goes into organizations with everything already mapped out and developed, right? The big international companies that have gone through their process of maturing their growth pains and now have everything fine-tuned.

So you basically will come in and they're like, hey, Mary, this is the procedure, the documents, your checklist. All you have to do is do the doing versus others that aren't necessarily there in their journey, but they'll require you to come and be an advocate for change and develop those processes. But a lot of people struggle with that because they don't have the experience. They're unsure of how to develop those tools or what that looks like or what those expectations are.

So it's really important to have those conversations, as we've been saying, to understand what is the experience people are bringing into the organization and where have they come from to help you get a better understanding of their capabilities and even potentially how much they need to be nurtured because if they haven't done it before, a lot of people struggle.

Or they leave it, they leave it, they leave it, and there's an expectation that work's been done or processes have been developed. And then when the time comes to having that review and saying, okay, well, we set this deadline, nothing gets done. It's unfortunate because they just didn't necessarily have the capabilities and they didn't also have the conversations to say, "I'm not too sure how to do that. Can I get support?"

Or they just kind of let it fall and nothing happens.

- Yeah, it's a vulnerable position to be in to admit that, oh, you've brought me in as an expert, yes, but I'm still not quite sure what you want. So, it's difficult. So for a lot of issues pertaining to fit, you believe in honest conversations about people's talents and tasks and that we should, I'm quoting you here, "Elevate people to the level that they can achieve."

- Yes.

- So honest conversations, in my experience, often mean difficult conversations or can mean that, but often. So how can people ensure that uncomfortable conversations are also good conversations?

- Yeah. For me, I always say it comes from always being compassionate and upfront, but having an objective in mind as well and being very descriptive. So I'll give you an example. I was working in a leadership position and I had a team that I managed and I reached a point of getting quite frustrated because I walked into this role...once again, we talked about assumptions and perceptions, right?

That my team were technically strong, had capabilities. So in my mind, I was there to, you know, define the strategies, give the plans, and they'd have the capability to execute. Now, unfortunately, and in this position, we were in the contracting space, so there was a level of expectation of quality when it came to providing information to our clients. And what I was finding is that, you know, my team didn't necessarily have the capabilities at the level that I expected.

And so I had to invest a lot of my time to then rectify and get the work to the standard that the clients accepted. And I'd got to a point where personal reflection, I couldn't keep having this bandaid approach, right? To me, I shouldn't have continued to also have done all the heavy lifting, so to speak, to get something to a level where I should have actually had those conversations to support my team.

And so for me, I reached a point where I had to have a very honest conversation that can make people uncomfortable. So I had to go and have a conversation with my team members. So I went out into location...and like I said, I'm a big advocate of empowering, coaching, elevating people.

And so we sat there and I was very honest with my intent. So started the conversation about saying, you know, I tend to spend a number of excessive hours having to get the reports that get issued to me to a level that's accepted by the client. I want to give you some insight in terms of sharing with you the quality of the documentation that they accept versus the document that I receive from you.

And I'm doing this because I want to work with you to help you to get to this level, but help you understand that my commitment to you is, you know, a willingness to work with you, you know, give you three months. And this is when it comes to that development plan, right? I want to give you a set timeframe. Define those expectation of being able to help you get to the standard where I don't have to invest hours on it and updating, amending your documentation for it to be approved.

And I was very taken back, his response was one where he got a bit emotional. And once again, I then reiterated, this isn't from a place of being nasty. This is a place of me wanting to help you, right? I can see that you work hard and you invest a lot of time, so I want to help you to be able to get there. And I was very humbled by the response I got.

And it was one where the emotion was described as, I'm not responding this way because I'm, you know, necessarily upset by you telling me what you're telling me because I'm so actually appreciative, I'm frustrated at the fact that I've been working in this organization for many, many years before you stepped in and became my manager and nobody told me that the quality of my work was poor.

So I assume that what I was doing was a good job. And now I'm thinking to myself, was everyone just sitting there, or were people in the back, you know, laughing at, you know, the quality of my work? Because when I showed him, remember what good looks like, what was submitted, what the clients appreciated versus what was initially provided, he was able to see what the expectation was for him to get to good.

And so he really appreciated that. It was a hard conversation, right? Many managers that I've seen have a very short fuse as well when it comes to then themselves being frustrated. And for them, it's either step up or ship out and we'll get someone else to do it. But I'm a firm believer of giving people the opportunity to develop, to gain the skillsets, to elevate themselves.

And I was so thrilled at once again, that response, the humility to be honest with me as I was with him, but also his willingness to want to learn from me. And I'm so thrilled when I now, you know, look at his career progression, he's taken a manager role. I've got another advisor that stepped into a director's role. But it's only by having these difficult and challenging conversations because not many people like to share bad news.

And I, unfortunately, think that's the case as well when it comes to the industry and the fatalities we're having, when it comes to the suicide, when it comes to the injuries we continue to have. People don't like to share bad news. And I find it so unfortunate because even when I get asked to go into these organizations and I then have these closeout meetings with the executive team, with the CEOs, I always sit there and I ask the question, are you surprised by the information I'm sharing with you in terms of the state of where your business is at, some of the areas and the challenges that you're facing?

I obviously give improvement opportunities and action plans, but the majority of the time I get a yeah. I'm actually surprised. And that takes me back because I'm like, how is it that you're the only one person, or the only team, that doesn't realize the struggles or the culture that's been formed? And I appreciate the honest response because they tell me, "Well, Ang, the information that we get told is things are going well."

The imagery that we see is, like you said before, the job got done. Within the timeframe that we set, within the budget that we defined, work is continuing on and we're, you know, a productive organization, without actually understanding that, hey, you know what? Your equipment's not fit for purpose.

Your maintenance schedule isn't adequate. There are shortcuts being taken. All of these things, when you start to then say, this is the reality of how your business operates for you to execute and have that outcome that we're all celebrating, they're, unfortunately, really taken back by it. And it's a very uncomfortable and dangerous space to be in as well because no one, you know, hand on heart actually wants people to be harmed.

When I talk to businesses and I say the cost of doing business should never be someone's life, they sit there and they agree. Like, I remember when I first started, you know, in my safety career, I worked in oil and gas and I was dumbfounded by having conversations at that time. And the appetite was, hey, Ang, yeah, we factored X amount of dollars for X amount of fatalities because that's the cost of operating.

That's the nature of the job of what we do and how we do it. And I would honestly have these challenging conversations because I could not agree. And I would educate them in the sense of, no, like our processes, the engineering that we have, the designs, you know, the people are competent experts in their space, there is never a reason for anyone to pay the price of their life to do that job.

And so we've gone through this evolution in a sense of changing people's mindset of what it takes to operate and what that, you know, looks like. But it's still a very slow process. So we went from cost of doing business is fatalities, which, unfortunately, it still is, right? There's still a lot of fatalities in the high-risk industry to then a motivating factor being pushed because it was regulated.

So, we have acts, we have regulations, we've got codes of practices. So, unfortunately, people had to be forced to change their appetite and willingness to do things safely because it was mandated. And in order to operate, in order to have licenses to operate, you have to follow legislation. We need to move forward where it's not something that we have to do, but we care to do. We want people to not be negatively impacted.

We want people to enjoy what they do. Like, I always say to people, the heartbeat of every business is the people within it. Why not allow them to elevate themselves, thrive in that space that they're in, and enjoy it? Like, there's nothing worse, and trust me, I've experienced most of it myself, where you have to sit there in bed going, "Oh, how do I muster the energy to go to work today?"

Because there's all of those psychosocial hazards and factors you're dealing with, right? You know, the relationships aren't working. There's harassment. There's unrealistic job expectations. There's lack of clarity. There's poor reward and recognition.

You can already be faced with so many challenges that we shouldn't battle with ourselves to find the motivation to then want to go and, you know, be a participant and be purpose-driven and provide, you know, an organization the opportunity to support people.

- One of the things that as you're speaking about conversations and difficult conversations and sort of bridging gaps of understanding is timing. So difficult conversations are difficult. However, the longer it takes you to get around to saying them, like, I'm thinking about that worker who was saying, you know, I've worked here for years.

And if someone had told that person, you know, on the first week, well, no, this isn't acceptable, then it would hurt a little, it'd be a difficult conversation, but nowhere near as difficult it would as it would be 10 years down the line, for example.

- Yeah. Oh, very much so. Yeah. And, you know, we're the harshest critics of ourselves. Like, I always say, my expectations of myself are so high and I will be the one that will, you know, picket at most of the things we do. But you're absolutely right. And that even comes down to the habits that we spoke about.

In order to change people's perceptions, their decision-making, and their habits, we need to have immediate conversations. And when I say immediate, so for example, when you're in a workplace environment and something happens, we need to have the conversations when things occur. So, for example, I was on a location and then someone came up to me and the management team after the fact and said, hey, I saw this person doing an unsafe act and I'm telling you and just reporting it.

And I was dumbfounded because I was like, well, when did this happen? And what conversation did you have and how did you help them, you know, rectify that? Potentially they didn't realize they weren't doing the job safely and effectively. There are some green people or new-to-industry people that are out there. To me, I'm like, every moment is a teachable moment. And so they kind of looked at me like, "Well, no, I just saw it and walked off and I'm here telling you."

And I'm like, and it's what, three hours later, and this person, like, you walked away even, how do you walk away from the potential of someone harming themselves? Like, I think I really take on such an aspect of caring for individuals, I couldn't live with myself if I walked away.

And I've had some awkward conversation, right? Being in an industry that's very male-orientated, having someone be like, "Love, what are you going to tell me? I've been in this game for over 40 years." And I'll say, "I know, right? I'm sure you don't want me standing here, but I cannot walk away knowing that you could potentially hurt yourself." So I'm going to help you do that safely. I'm going to help you get the right equipment.

I'm going to be a supporter, an advocate to get you to do this job safely and effectively. But if you walk away and not have that instinct, like I think that's a really sad thing. Like, I've been on work sites and even if it hasn't been something to do with my team, because I'm part of an organization, I'm accountable. So I'll go to locations, and you know, a lot of the crews will be dumbfounded because I will stand there and be humble and show humility and be bold and say, how have I failed you?

How has my team failed you? How has this business failed you? For us to get to this point where you're struggling or we've had incidents, where have we gone wrong and what can we do better? And then you'll have people go, well, we need the right tools. We need the right time. We need, you know, more people that are competent. We need this, we need that.

Okay, great. So let me help you along that journey. But I refuse to not realize that I have a part to play and I have the ability to influence in a positive way. And I think people need to understand that a little bit more, have those conversations then and there in a respectful manner because sadly I still see it where it's not, right? They'll be cursing people out, hey, you dumbass, and this and that.

I'm like, how does that motivate anyone? I've seen even sadly, people, executives that have been, you know, given some advice..sadly, when we talked about that mannerism, you know, I'm here because of my role and how they should engage with people. And they've been told that it's like, you know, that parent-child relationship, and I've just sat there and went, when does that work for anyone?

By you talking to that individual who's actually, you know, random example, a grown man who's in his 60s with children himself and you are talking to them like they're this small and that they're a child will never motivate anyone. But if you come and you are at that same level in the sense of, you know, I care for your well-being and I'd love to get an understanding of how you're doing that job because from my understanding the process is that we do A, B, C, and D, but I didn't quite see you do that, can you explain to me, you know, why that is or what I'm missing out on?

Be respectful and understand that it's that relationship where it's not I'm dictating to you when I'm going to belittle you because it doesn't motivate anyone. And I've seen a lot of people in those positions where they're grown-ass men being spoken to like they're this and it doesn't do anything to foster a culture of care and well-being and motivation. If anything, it actually causes some people to take the reverse and go, screw you, I'm going to purposely then take a shortcut, or I'm going to, you know, potentially sabotage something because you treated me like that and I want you to, to suffer in the same way in a sense.

So we really need to change that whole mentality and approach and just look at it like...you know, and maybe I'm different in the sense of I look at people as if they're, you know, people that I care for. I got into this industry because, you know, my dad is a time engineer and my brother is an engineer, sister's an environmental advisor.

We're all in this space. So it could be anyone. I look at...well, it could have been my dad, my brother, my sister, exposed to that risk. Would I allow them to put themselves in that position and be harmed, or would I speak to them in that way or expect them to speak to me? No, I care for you and I want you to be safe. How can I help you, or what is it that you're struggling with? And for me, I guess I've been always willing to also be the voice and an advocate.

I will back anyone 150% when it comes to safety. And I always say to them, if you're challenged to have those conversations with the management team or whomever you're feeling that you've got that conflict with, I'm your advocate and I will have that conversation for you to get that solution. So I think it's really important, especially as, you know, you talk about people in the safety space, they need to be able to be advocates, to speak for people, to support them, to deliver messages, to also encourage them to build the courage to have those courageous conversations, but also not let someone struggle.

Like, if they are having challenges, and I've done that myself, right? Gone up to a manager and gone, wow, the way that you've engaged with your team is not one that inspires them to do things safely. Like, be willing to, once again, have that uncomfortable conversation, but with an intent to have a positive outcome.

- So because your approach is holistic and you work with all different levels of an organization, and the answer to this may be it depends, but how long does it usually take to see the kind of change that you're hoping for on an organizational level?

- Yeah, it really varies. So the key for the driver of timeframe for success is really the level of buy-in first off from the executive team. I find that from my experience, if they're in and they're willing and they have the appetite to change the way that they operate to take a different approach, which is, I always say my holistic approach is very different to what others do, then the turnaround in terms of their improvements can be quite short.

So, for example, one of the engagements that I recently had with an organization, you know, the CEO was the one that had the vulnerability to say, hey, I'm uncomfortable and I have chronic unease. I don't want to be the next organization to have a fatality because there have been multiple ones that have occurred. So our incident rate is doing this and it's not giving me a level of comfort that we're doing anything different to these other organizations that will foster the outcome that I'm after, which is no one getting hurt.

So how do we do that differently? And so because of that, the executive team then, you know, became a think tank group and they had also the willingness to approach me to do something different. And so from that and going through and then having these touchpoints, we did workshops with everyone in their business, from the operator to the admin, with the general managers collectively, talking about motivations, where the business is at with decisions.

We encouraged and empowered. It's all about that. Empowered workforces create safer work environments. Because we did that, it's now been six months since we've embarked on this whole roadshow, roadmap to change doing safety differently, and they've had a decrease of injuries by 50%.

They've had wins in the sense I had one of their executive managers call me and say, "Ang, I want to celebrate this conversation with you." And I was like, "Ooh, tell me." They had one of the employees that participated in our workshop go out on location and said, when we talked about weak signals and chronic unease and situational awareness and how you need to use your safety intuition as an indicator as well to, you know, really analyze if you're making the safe decisions, if your actions are reciprocating the ways to keep you safe, they actually had a conversation on location with one of the clients saying, I need to have one of the operators here to ensure that the equipment's isolated.

We need this, this, this to do it safely. So I'm going to stay here and wait till you provide that before I put myself at risk. And that was phenomenal, right? Because, unfortunately, previously what people do, they have that sense of fear I have to just do what, what it takes to get the job done. And just say yes, yes, and appease everyone and know that I'm actually doing a job where I'm putting myself at risk.

So, for example, there was a near miss on one location, not with one of my clients, where someone hadn't adequately planned the job, hadn't had the right people participate, the isolations hadn't been done. And so the piece of equipment then moved when an individual was working and working under a load and it could have been a fatality.

So the little things that, you know, are still important, we need to empower people to have that voice, to be able to understand when something doesn't feel right, to question it, and then take action there. So, you know, for me that's what motivates me to be able to honestly empower people, to strengthen their holistic capabilities, their understanding of their decision-making, their observations, their effective communication skills, that safety intuition's so important.

And then the way they build those habits and take action, to help them truly be that first and last line of defense. I think it's really unfortunate that we've conditioned people to just go in blindly into jobs. I remember being on location once and I was there for a while and, you know, you hear the environment. You hear the movement of, you know, the grass around you when you're in an open field.

You hear the motors running you. It's like a soul that you've now formed an understanding of the beats to it and suddenly something changes in terms of that noise. And for me, my gut sank. And I was astonished because I looked around me at people that to me are the subject matter experts, guys on the tools, the people that do the job, the operators, the technical experts, they actually work with their hands and understand that equipment.

And so when I looked to them, I would've expected them to respond the same as me. Like, oh, what was that? Red flag? And when I have turned and done that, I just see a blind willingness to keep operating. And so when I was on location and this noise continued to get louder and my gut feel was, maday, maday, you better run because if something goes wrong, it's unforgiving and it could be catastrophic.

I turned to the operators next to me and said, "Do you hear that? Like, that to me is something different." And the response I got was a real big eye-opener for me. And basically, I had the response of, "Yeah, I hear that. Never heard it before. I don't know what it is, but it's okay because I'm following the standard operating procedure."

And my mouth just dropped, right? And I was like, okay, well, I'll make the executive decision to put tools down because what we should be doing is understanding that situational awareness, that safety intuition, that gut feel that something isn't right, because now there's these signals that something's changed in our environment and we need to use it as an opportunity to investigate and not wait till something's catastrophic.

And so we did and we found out that there was a piece of equipment where a bolt was working its way out, so it needed some maintenance. It could have been catastrophic. It could have cost millions of dollars. It could have had someone's well-being impacted. And so for me, I wanted to have a safety stand down after that because like we said before, right, that timing of having conversations uneasy or not is so critical. So they had fixed the issue at hand and we went and sat down and I'm like, let's use it as the opportunity.

You're having your break. Have a cup of coffee. Refresh yourself in the shack. And I said to them, I just want to understand why it is that I was the only one that had that chronic unease in terms of the consequence of something suddenly happening like that and us not taking action? And I understand completely the conditioning of why they then allowed themselves to be comfortable in that situation.

There had previously been a number of incidents in the organization and everyone had been told, you shall never deviate from that standard operating procedure. You must comply or else that's it. That can lead to an instant dismissal. And so they then had this mindset of compliance-driven. Do not go outside these lines in this procedure or there are consequences of it being my job, which to me I understand in terms of following processes, but it doesn't negate the fact that it's a guide to help you follow a safe process of doing the job, but it's not taking out your own ability to hear something change, to see something change, and use that as a trigger to stop and investigate and then make it safe.

So we really had to have the conversation about you need to strengthen your situational awareness and use that as an opportunity to go investigate and make some changes to make something safe instead of waiting till something catastrophic happens. But I completely understand how we've, unfortunately, conditioned people in the workplace to behave a certain way and to think a certain way, and feel a certain way.

Because I'm a big believer of how you think influences how you feel and how you feel influences how you act.

- Yes. The organization can really create a mood by saying you don't deviate no matter what. You're essentially saying, hang up your critical thinking, go in there, and yeah, ignore your intuition. So we're near the end, but I have a few questions that I ask everyone. So, my first one at the University of Angelina, where would you focus soft skill training or human relationship training if you were to be training tomorrow's safety professionals?

- For me, a big one is care and compassion. Like, being able to really allow everyone to understand that we all have a story, we all have struggles. And being able to understand how having a humanistic approach to the way that we work really can influence some exceptional outcomes.

I think it's unfortunate when I have, you know, mentored a number of people and how negatively impacted they have become because of their workplace. You know, either it be social anxiety, depression, they get rashes on their body because that humanistic approach has been lost and they feel like a number and they haven't been supported, nurtured in their development, that care and compassion is missing.

I think if we can all bring back that humanistic way of engaging with each other, we can work together and have such positive influences.

- I look forward to the University of Angelina.

- I'll still be trying.

- So that was going to the future. Now, if you could go back in time to the beginning of your safety career, what's one piece of advice that you might give yourself?

- I actually think it would be the importance of investing in myself in the sense of understanding that a work environment, a workplace, an organization has the ability to impact you either positively or negatively, but it's me that has to control myself and take back my power.

You know, I learned the hard way in being in some organizations that were very challenging. You know, I had a manager that was very...you know, a dictator. You know I did a rotation. I've done FIFO. I always kind of, I think, had that mentality, especially going through the educational system and, you know, being drilled hard work is the key to success.

But, unfortunately, hard work in many organizations mean you get more work and you can be bombarded with a hell of a lot more. And, unfortunately, I had done that in a section of my career where I gave and I gave and I gave and I gave thinking that, well, you know what? The organization will give back in the sense of realizing that my health was being negatively impacted, but it was still a take, take, take relationship.

And, unfortunately, you know, my well-being was impacted. I, you know, suffered from an autoimmune disease and a heart condition. And so I ended up having to take so much time to actually help myself go back to being at the state I was at before I gave and I gave and I gave, but that took a lot of me having to change my attitude and mindset of how I operate in a workplace.

So, for example, referring back to my own sphere of influence, what is it that I can control versus an organization? We can be very passionate in the safety space and think, but I've got the solution, and the business should be doing this and nobody took on my idea, but is that your role? Is that the part that you play?

What can you influence? What is it about your well-being that you should be doing in terms of focusing on your mindset, your well-being, and then allowing yourself to positively impact others? So I think if I could do that earlier on in my career, I wouldn't have had the struggles I did with my well-being. I would have changed my personal way of managing myself in a workplace and had probably a better outcome with that.

- Yeah, well, living is learning with that kind of thing unfortunately. That is very true. Are there any resources like books or websites or organizations that you would want to point listeners towards that you would find helpful really in anything that we've spoken about today?

- I think I just always advise people to think outside the box. So, when I mentor people and they think of either wanting to progress in the safety space, I wouldn't necessarily always just focus on reading a book on safety. So think about, you know, individuals that have inspired people around personal development, around building good habits, around educating yourself, you know, in the space of neuroscience, around...you know, I still love the book, "Good to Great" because it talks about challenging that mindset.

So I always say to people where you can, think outside the box. You know, when I talk about my holistic approaches, I've educated myself in different areas. You know, I've done natural therapies, holistic counseling, find other ways to be able to think of ways to approach things differently. You know, people kind of laugh when you have conversations and people are struggling and you start bringing up things like art therapy or music and, you know, ways to inspire people to focus on self-care.

So, if anything, think outside the box and find other ways to, you know, develop that holistic aspect of who you are and what makes others who they are.

- Good advice. I think we can all learn from looking at the same thing through a number of different lenses.

- Absolutely. And it's a good example. So even, you know, in the mining space, they talk a lot about high-reliability organizations, and that all came from the aviation field. So even thinking outside your industry, thinking outside your expertise, you can learn so much, just be open-minded to it.

- So where can our listeners find you on the web should they wish to reach out to you?

- Sure. So I am on LinkedIn. Just look me up, Angelina Badri. I love connecting with people and having conversations. But also I have a website up, universalsafetywellness.com, and I'll be putting a lot of resources there and helping as much as I can spread the word and facilitate learning however I can.

- Great. Well, unfortunately, that's all the time we have for today. Thanks to our listeners for tuning in, of course. And thanks so much, Angelina, for having an honest conversation.

- My pleasure. Thank you for the opportunity and the willingness to have the conversation with me.

- And, of course, as always, my thanks go to the "Safety Labs by Slice" team who are on the frontline of OHS podcasting. That's all for today. Bye for now. Safety Labs is created by Slice, the only safety knife on the market with a finger-friendly blade.

Find us at sliceproducts.com. Until next time, stay safe.