The Impact of Stress on Workplace Health and Safety

In this episode, Mary Conquest speaks with Dr Martha Grajdek, an industrial organizational (IO) psychologist, researcher, executive coach, speaker and author who’s been advising on stress management and leadership for over two decades.

Combining science with a holistic approach, Martha explains what IO psychology is and how it can help HSE professionals improve health and safety in the workplace.

She is an expert in work-related stress and shares her knowledge in identifying and managing this issue. Martha recognizes that stress is particularly significant for EHS professionals. It can seriously compromise their safety management initiatives, and HSE professionals have very stressful roles.

Therefore, Dr Grajdek provides helpful guidance throughout her interview on the steps you can take to manage stress across your organization and within yourself - with a key focus on self-care.

♪ [music] ♪ - [Mary] My name is Mary Conquest, I'm your host for "Safety Labs by Slice," the podcast where we explore the human side of safety to support safety professionals. We move past regulations and reportables to talk about the core skills of safety leadership. Empathy, influence, trust, rapport.

In other words, the soft skills that help you do the hard stuff. ♪ [music] ♪ Welcome to "Safety Labs by Slice." Stress. We all know it, we've all felt it, we all deal with it differently. What happens when stress and the workplace collide?

Whether the stress originates at work or at home, it's hard to leave it at the door. Today, we're talking about how stress relates to the safety profession. We're asking, "How does stress affect workplace health and safety?" and, "What is the OHS professional's role in dealing with stress at work?" Dr.

Martha Grajdek is here today to help us explore this. Dr. Grajdek is an industrial organizational psychologist, researcher, executive coach, speaker, and author. For over two decades, she's been coaching and advising on the topics of stress management and leadership. In addition to a PhD in industrial and organizational psychology, Dr. Grajdek has a master's degree in business administration and a bachelor's degree in psychology.

Her expertise focuses on work-related stress, and her efforts aim to help others who experience work-related stress issues. Combining science with a holistic approach that examines the whole rather than an isolated system allows Martha to not only help others but also teach individuals to help themselves. Dr.

Grajdek joins us from Syracuse, New York. Welcome.

- [Dr. Grajdek] Thank you, it's a pleasure to be here.

- So, I'd like to start by understanding your angle, your point of view in relation to workplace safety. So, what is an industrial and organizational psychology and what does an I/O psychologist do?

- Okay. So, industrial and organizational psychology, also known as I/O psychology, is the scientific study of the workplace. That means that we take the knowledge base and the scientific methods that are associated with psychology and we apply those at the workplace.

Now, I/O psychologists do many different things. To put it in broad terms, an I/O psychologist will take research that improves productivity, performance, and wellness within organizations, both at the organizational and the individual level.

But more specifically, I/O psychologists could be involved in many different ways within an organization. For example, we could be involved with onboarding new staff, new talent, or training and development of existing employees.

We could help to facilitate change or development at the organizational level. We could be involved with things that have to do with motivation or performance, things such as helping an organization to improve the diversity and inclusion within that company. So, as you can see, the list is quite lengthy.

But that's one of the reasons why I/O psychology is such an exciting field. It's dynamic, it's growing, and it allows us to help at both the organizational and the individual level. And that right there allows us to formulate a better understanding, a more complete picture of what we're looking at, what we're dealing with, which then allows us to create and implement a more comprehensive solution to the problem at hand.

- Okay. So, you've preempted my next question, which was about working on the level of the individual or the team or the organization. And it sounds to me like, in general, it's a mix, but maybe it also depends on what your specific role within the organization, like, what aspect you were hired to help improve.

- Certainly. When you think about it, we would start at the organizational level simply because it's the organization that is most likely to bring an I/O psychologist into the picture. So, whether an I/O psychologist is on staff with that particular organization or they work in the capacity of a consultant, they start at the organizational level.

But from there, we're able to work with groups, individuals, or the organization as a whole, whatever the need is.

- Okay. So, let's get a little more into your expertise, which is stress. And, again, I like to start by defining things. So, what is your working definition of stress?

- So, if we look at stress with a dictionary type of definition, stress can be defined as a physical, chemical, psychological, or emotional factor that causes bodily or mental tension. But I like to take that definition a step further and say that this bodily or mental tension may be a factor in disease causation, which is very important as we look at stress and its potential effects.

- Yeah. So, again, that leads me into why is stress worth discussing in the context of workplace health and safety? What does an individual's personal stress have to do with the success of the organization? And this is a triple question here, and what's wrong with the more traditional sort of leave-it-at-the-door approach?

- Well, the leave-it-at-the-door approach would be fine if it worked, but organizations are filled with people, and people are not machines. People have feelings, they have emotions, they have egos. So, it's not always so easy to flip a switch and leave it at the door, so to speak. The reality is that that stress comes with us, we can't leave it and then pick it up at the end of our shift.

Stress can affect people in many ways. Just some examples. Stress can interfere with our ability to focus, with our ability to concentrate, to pay attention. And when you think about just those things alone, we could be looking at loss of productivity, a loss of motivation. And stress can also act as a distraction of sorts.

When we discuss safety at the workplace, distractions are an important consideration because even if we look at stress for one individual within an organization, if we are experiencing stress or if that person is experiencing stress and distraction as part of that experience, they are now exposed to a greater likelihood of having some kind of an accident or being involved in some kind of an accident.

And even if it's one person, an accident is not good news for an organization. Beyond that, we also have health considerations. Those could be physical health or psychological health issues. Health issues at an organization are costly in many ways, they can affect performance and productivity, and they can really affect the company's ability to compete within their own market.

When the company is not at its best because its workforce is not at its best, then the company is not able to compete with others out in the world. So, there are so many different reasons why stress is a big deal when we look at stress at the workplace.

- Yeah. And you mentioned earlier, too, disease, right, which is going to cause absenteeism.

- Absolutely.

- Which is obviously a productivity hit. So, when you're working with an organization, how do you determine stress levels? What are some common indicators that you look for?

- So, things like performance, engagement, accuracy, absenteeism, and even statistics related to accidents are good metrics to keep in mind when we're considering stress levels within an organization. Systematic and regular measures are key to recognizing trends and identifying change. So, in other words, the best way to become aware of change is to track data over time.

Recognizing and measuring stress levels may be done in a variety of ways, from tracking things like productivity or accuracy to administering surveys, or questionnaires, or tests to employees or even to customers, that can be very revealing.

Things such as simply being engaged with the workforce through regular contact and conversation can be a good indicator of stress, good way of detecting stress. Now, that doesn't mean that a manager or a team leader has to spend his day chit-chatting with all of the employees all day long, but if you think about a leader who is engaged and involved, he will be able to tell or notice if there's something different about an individual on his team or the individual's work.

So, simple engagement is a good way to gauge and recognize stress.

- Yeah, and I think it would be helpful, you know, someone coming from the outside, "Is this a systemic issue? Is this an individual..." I would think that management would be really helpful to sort of help you tune into that sort of thing. So, who within an organization, do you think, is best placed to address stress-related issues, and how should they go about doing it?

- So, certainly, when it comes to actually addressing stress and stress-related issues, I think it's safe to say that the HR department is most well suited. But recognizing stress early and addressing it effectively takes more than just one department. One could say that it takes a village.

So, in some sense, everybody within an organization has a responsibility to be aware of what's going on around them, what's going on with their colleagues, with their co-workers. So, while the HR department would be best to address it, being aware and bringing things to their attention is everybody's responsibility.

- Okay. So, there may be some listeners thinking, "Well, okay, I understand why it's important, but as the OHS person, I'm not sure how to tackle this." So, maybe they don't feel that the c-suite is supportive of mental health-type initiatives or maybe the understanding within the organization is that this is entirely HR's responsibility. So, and you've kind of debunked that already, but what advice could you offer to a safety professional who feels kind of stuck like this?

- Well, again, the HR department can't be everywhere all the time. It goes back to taking on a responsibility of being aware of what's going on around us. Sometimes when things get ignored, that's when they're allowed to become a bigger issue than they could've been otherwise. And what we're talking about isn't being in somebody else's business or being a gossiper or tattletaling, it's about being respectful and addressing an issue maybe with a manager or someone at the HR department, simply bringing it to their attention so that they can take it from there and address it appropriately.

So, it's not about having every individual getting fully involved in an issue but simply speaking up. A certain amount of discretion and professionalism is called for here. We're all adults. So we need to be able to have that conversation as needed with the appropriate person but then let the people who are trained to handle it handle it from there.

- So, and I don't know if you've ever had any experience like this, but what about, when you come into an organization or an I.O psychologist comes in and employees are concerned about privacy, there's...either they're feeling the stigma that's attached to mental health or maybe they feel it's not the organization's place to know about personal stresses, like a divorce or a miscarriage, that can be very personal, or they simply might not trust what the organization will do with the information, how do you work around those issues?

- Well, the organization and its management really don't need to know anybody's personal business, what they do need to know is that a person requires help. So, knowing, that's how a company can help, by knowing that somebody needs help, they can then provide resources or support to be of actual help.

Personal business details really should be kept out of that conversation as a standard approach. And certain individuals will choose to share more than others, that's a personal choice, but it's a good practice to keep a certain level of professional separation. The company isn't there to be a therapist, the company isn't there to be a friend, the company is there to provide the kind of support that will be of help to the employee.

But beyond that, it's not their place to get into anybody's personal business. They can be helpful by providing things such as maybe, for example, flexible schedules or counseling services, making those available, making people aware of how they can get counseling services, or maybe childcare services.

Whatever the case may be, that's where the most helpful part of the employer's engagement lies, not in knowing the details.

- So, I'm thinking of this as kind of psychological safety, in terms of the employees...so, it's not just that the employers need to know, need to understand those boundaries, but I think it needs to be communicated as well to the employees that these boundaries exist, "We understand, we respect them."

Are there any ways that are sort of better or worse to do that, as an organization?

- Well, one of the best ways to do things is to put them in writing. Create policies, create guidelines, and then put them in writing and make sure that all of the employees are aware of these things and have access to this information. So, when you first come into an organization, you probably receive some kind of a employee handbook.

If that were clearly outlined in the handbook, that would be readily available information right there. Some companies, when they onboard new talent, they like to go over the highlights of what's in the handbook.

Handbooks tend to be thick and boring and nobody really reads them, right, despite of all the effort that is put into putting them together. But if somebody who is part of the onboarding team were to go over some of the highlights of what's in that handbook, that could be something that could be brought up. So, it's all about being proactive and communicating.

- Yeah, and I would think, and you touched on this earlier as well, having that communication through the managers as well, being sure that all the management level understands that this is a priority and can remind employees of this as the occasion arises.

- Absolutely.

- So, I understand that there's a high rate of burnout among safety professionals. Which, to me, is understandable, they've got important responsibilities. It's hard to tackle employee or organizational stress when you yourself are feeling the effects of stress. So, when life-and-death decisions and procedures can be in your hands, how do you protect yourself from the inherent demands of the job?

- Well, burnout is a serious consideration within organizations. And burnout has been a topic of conversation for a number of years now, this is nothing new. Naturally, some professions are considered to be more stressful, more taxing, and they tend to be associated with higher levels of burnout or higher rates or risk for burnout. And, of course, making life-and-death decisions can be very stressful.

When it comes to addressing burnout, the responsibility falls on everyone involved, meaning the employer and the employee. Neither side has the luxury of waiting for the other to do something about it. So, the employer must be proactive in promoting a healthy workplace and a healthy workforce, and the employee absolutely has to be his own advocate.

That means speaking up and setting appropriate boundaries, boundaries that promote a healthy work experience. But it also means proper self-care and effective stress management. So, we can try to eliminate stress, but realistically, we'll never get rid of all of the stress in our lives. So, each person has the responsibility of being as healthy, as strong, and as resilient as they can be to properly manage stress and, therefore, decrease the chances of burnout.

- Yeah. And I think part of that would be self-awareness, too, because stress shows itself differently for different people. You know, there's the joke in movies or something when someone develops a tick and it's clear that that's stress related, right?

But for some people, it's sore muscles or, you know...I think there's a certain amount of self-education that has to happen there, too.

- Oh, absolutely. Absolutely, you have to be self-aware, that's why it's so important to take time to yourself, to know who you are, feel what you're feeling, recognize your own behaviors, recognize your responses to different things, different situations, different stressors. Because, like you said, if you're the only one who doesn't know that you have this tick when stress hits, you're in trouble.

- Yeah, yeah. I'm just thinking, you know, like, because there are a lot of messages about, "Oh, I can handle that," and you see it, again, in movies and TV shows where the hero, they just take on everything. Right? And there are a lot of messages about maybe being less than if you admit that you can't handle things.

So, in some ways, I imagine some of that work is kind of disassembling those beliefs in people.

- Absolutely, especially in the western society. We are so programmed to go, go, go, never show fatigue or weakness, or never say no to any request. It's to the point of ridiculousness.

People are literally dropping dead at their desks from overworking and being stressed to that level. So, it has to be a cultural shift, on some level, but it starts at the individual level. Again, we all have that responsibility of setting boundaries, saying no, and taking care of ourselves first.

If you think about the instructions that you get on a plane before a flight or at the beginning of a flight, what do they tell you? "In case of an emergency, you have to put that oxygen mask on yourself first, and then you help everybody else." Well, it's the same idea. If you don't take care of yourself, how long before you're unable to help anybody else or do your job?

So, it is absolutely critical that we come to a point, come to that realization, an epiphany, if it has to be so, that there is a limit. We are seeing what's being called the great resignation now, right, people are quitting their...the pandemic has given a gift of time to many people, because lockdown's forced shut down in many ways, for many people, and it has given people the opportunity to rethink, "What am I doing with my life? Where am I going? Is this worth it? Is this what I want to do?"

So, I think, in some way, there is a shift that's happening. We are moving away from this super-competitive crazy hamster-wheel-type of existence and rethinking our lives, "How are we spending our lives? What's the story going to be on our deathbed?"

"I worked without ever taking a sick day or ever taking a vacation." Was that really the goal in your life? For most people, the answer is no.

- Yeah, there's been almost a global, you know, "Sit down and think about what you've done." Not in a punitive way, but, "Sit down and think about your life," everyone all at once was forced into that kind of introspection. So, yeah, it's interesting that that's what came out of it, is that people are shifting a lot. On the flip side of that, there's a common understanding that change is stressful for individuals.

So, that includes deaths, obviously, moves, becoming a parent, those are just examples of individual stressors. But what are some common organizational stressors, and would you say that individual stressors are the same as organizational ones or are there some that are really particular to the organizational level?

- Well, organizational stressors can be similar to stressors found in our personal lives. And change is a good example. Just as we experience change in our personal lives, there are changes that are to be expected within an organization. But what's important to point out here, I want to make sure that I bring this up, is perception.

Perception plays a big role when discussing change or stress in general. So, what may be perceived as a stressor or as something potentially harmful or detrimental by one person may be seen as a motivator or as a welcomed challenge by another. So, it's always important, in my opinion, to remember perception.

Perception is king because it can change everything. Now, when we look at organizational stressors at the individual level, a good example are job demands and job resources. So, those are pretty self-explanatory in that job demands are those things that we have to do at work, things that are expected of us, tasks that we have to complete.

And job resources are those things that allow us to complete those tasks. Ideally, both are within some kind of a sweet spot, an ideal state, right, job demands, not too many, not too few, not too difficult, not too easy. We need a challenge in life, but it has to be doable.

Same thing with job resources, we need resources to do our work. But if there's an imbalance there, that could be a stressor, an organizational stressor at the individual level. So, that's one example. Of course, types of organizational stressors and how they affect people depend on many things. Certain industries have certain stressors or certain stressors are more common in certain industries, things such as one's position within an organization or their level of responsibilities.

Sometimes an individual stressor could be related to information, not having enough information to do your job or having too much information. There are certain things that you can't unsee and unknow, and those could be stressful for people. So, there are many things that come into play when we think of organizational stressors at individual levels.

And, of course, perception always comes into play. Right? Because what you may consider to be simply a challenge may shut me down because I think it's the end of the world. Right? So, individual differences, perception. Now, we can also think of organizational stressors at the organization level.

Organizations can be seen as living entities of sorts. They have their own lifespans, they have certain cycles within their lifetime, they have a beginning and an end. Sometimes they're growing and thriving, sometimes they start to decline, and, eventually, they cease to exist.

But the trick within organizational stressors at the organizational level is that the organization is not going to lose sleep and toss and turn over an issue, it's always going to be the individuals. So, when we look at organizational stressors, whether we look at individual level or organizational level, it's always the individuals, it's always the people who have to handle them.

That's why it's so important to look at stress and work-related stress specifically.

- Yeah, that's interesting. I'm envisioning this double perception that you would need to have for your job. You talked about working holistically, which is, you know, the system of the organization, which is like an organism, but yeah, if you get too lost in that, it becomes theoretical and forgets the individuals.

So, yeah. And another thought about perception is that you could say that it's an individual's responsibility to sort of understand their own perception and maybe, hopefully, edge less towards, "Everything is horrible," and maybe some things are opportunities. But, on the other hand, the organization can't assume that everyone's going to have a sunny reaction to some sort of organizational change.

They have to remember that for some people, this will be scary, whatever this is. Right?

- Absolutely, absolutely. But the organization as a whole and its management specifically do have a responsibility of guiding the workforce and helping them along. So, whether that means mitigating stress, helping individuals to mitigate stress, or offering enough of an education and an explanation of what is happening to make that change less scary. So, there's definitely an importance in the organization's involvement.

Even though we understand that there are as many personalities as there are individuals within an organization, there is much to be said for leading the masses. And that's one of the responsibilities that an organization has.

- Yeah, I think that's why we hear a lot about change management these days. I think, maybe, and you can tell me, over the course of your career, if you've seen any change in this, but there seems to now be a recognition that organizations, businesses need to manage the change in terms of what they communicate and, like you were talking about, too much, too little information, and that sort of thing.

Do you think that's more prevalent now or...

- Absolutely. I think we are waking up to the psychology at the workplace, that's one of the reasons why I/O psychology, in my opinion anyway, is such an exciting and dynamic field and a growing field. Because conversations that are taking place now, issues that are tackled now would not have been discussed 100 years ago.

You had to suck it up, you minded your own business, "Keep your head down, do your work, or somebody else can do it for you and you can leave." It's a different world. And some may say it's long overdue, but I think we're at least heading in the right direction, we absolutely have to be more aware of the realities of how much psychology there is at the workplace.

Work places are filled with people, of course, it's full of psychology. But for so long, that hasn't even been considered, we're long overdue for that.

- Yeah, interesting. So, how do you think conversations about the effects of stress in the workplace relate to the times we're living through now? And when I say that, I'm really talking about the pandemic, I'm talking about geopolitical events, sort of things that we're all going through. And maybe even just the overload of information from our phones and computers and that sort of thing.

Do you think that these conversations are more relevant today, or have they always been just as relevant and we're only starting to pay attention now?

- Well, work-related stress has always been part of reality, but it hasn't always been addressed. So, like I said, you know, things that we are recognizing and discussing today, 50 or 100 years ago, they probably weren't even brought up.

- Or 30 years ago even, really.

- Or even sometimes even 30 years ago, you're right. Again, perception is an important consideration. But, you know, even today, when we look through different lenses, like gender, or culture, or even industry, work-related stress still is not the same thing through every lens, from every point of view.

Now, I think our technology has allowed us to connect with one another and share our experiences that are related to stress at the workplace. It helps us to understand that our experiences are not isolated, that this is a real thing that is happening to other people.

So, that's an exciting thing, I think, for everybody because we no longer have to suffer in silence, so to speak, we can address these issues more openly and then, hopefully, bring a resolution in an effective way. At the same time, if you speak of technology, technology is a double-edged sword. Right? It allows us to connect with people across the entire world in ways that we've never been able to do before.

But at the same time, there is an absolute overload of information that is coming at us all the time, 24/7. If you wanted to be up 24/7, you could be bombarded with information at a 24/7 rate. So, you have to be able to, again, curb that and tailor it to your own experience.

Responsibility comes into play here, having the ability to turn off your phone or your computer, wherever you get that informational feed. But again, today, I think we are much better at recognizing and discussing these things than we were in the past.

And I think technology plays a big role in that.

- Technology really does allow us to connect and presents challenges in not allowing us to disconnect.

- Absolutely. And properly disconnecting on a regular basis, on a daily basis, is such an issue that it's a pandemic all of its own. Right, we talk about work-life balance, or lack thereof, and one of the biggest culprits with that, of course, is technology.

It's wonderful, it allows us to work from virtually anywhere for so many of us, it allows us to connect. But when we don't have the personal power, or the will, or whatever you want to call it, to say, "Enough, I'm done for the day," it can become a problem.

- Yeah, yeah, double-edged sword indeed. So, I have a few questions that I ask all my guests, and I'm going to go into these now because I find the answers really interesting. So, the first one is, if you were to develop your own safety management training curriculum, where would you start when it comes to non-technical training?

What core human skills do you think are the most important to develop in tomorrow's safety managers?

- I think the most important thing is proper self-care and effective stress management. It all starts with the self. If we are not at our best, not at our strongest and most resilient, then we are not well prepared to tackle the world and everything that it throws at us.

So, to me, that would be the number one non-technical training that I would offer.

- That's great, and an answer that we haven't heard before, which is why it's so interesting to ask everyone these things. The next one is, if you could travel back in time and speak to yourself at the beginning of your career but you could only give one piece of advice, what would you say to young Martha?

- That is so easy. [crosstalk].

- [inaudible].

- Yes. I would tell my young self that no journey is a straight line. A journey is nothing more than meandering from one point to the next.

- It's true.

- When I was a young Martha, I thought, "This is how my life will go, from A to B to C to D," and none of that happened.

- Yeah, it's alphabet soup.

- None of it happened the way that I thought. I eventually got to a certain goal or whatever I intended, but it never happened the way that I initially thought it would be. So, that's something I wish I knew, maybe it would've made my journey less stressful or less frustrating.

- Yeah. No, and that's true for a lot of people, and especially that we do end up often where we get to a point, I don't know if it's middle age, but get to a point where it's just like, "Yup, this is where I was meant to be. I just had no idea it was going to go this way."

- Exactly.

- Okay. So, now I want to get super practical and ask you, what are your best most practical resources for safety managers that are looking to improve their work relationships and their core skills? And that's whether or not that's related to stress. These could be books, websites, or maybe a concept or a framework to look up.

- Certainly. Well, there's an awful lot of information out there, and not every single thing will resonate with every person. So, it's kind of a personal journey for everybody. But my big thing, as you already know, is self-care and stress management. I would invite people to check out my stress management course, which is a comprehensive course of addressing stress on many different levels from many different angles in life.

So, that's something that I would recommend. I'm also writing a book, but I'm only about halfway there, so I don't have an ETA for that yet, but that's also addressing a comprehensive approach to stress management.

- Are there any...you know, if you go into a bookstore, for example, and look at the self-care stress management kind of bookshelf, it's a little overwhelming, stressful in and of itself. Are there authors that really resonate with the way you think or books that you think people should...a good starting place or...

- To be honest with you, what I do is I just open a book and look at it. One of the things...technology has made it possible for us to read book reviews before we ever look at a book. So, that's something that I like to do. I like to see how well the book has done, I like to look at a summary for a book. It's less about the author for me, it's more about how much help has this book been to the public at large.

And if a lot of people are getting help from it or finding it valuable, then I'm much more interested in reading it myself. And, again, different things resonate with different people. A book that I might find interesting you may fall asleep trying to read, or vice versa. So, I really encourage people to not be so rigid and, "I have to read something by this author," or whatever another parameter might be that's restricting, but rather allow yourself to explore and find things that resonate with you.

And that's how you can move forward on your journey to better self-care. Why stress out over parameters, right, that keep you in a certain place? Just go with the flow, get a feel for it, and go with what feels right for you. Because you are much more likely to get value out of that than out of some book that somebody absolutely insisted that you have to read and then you couldn't get past the first chapter.

Why stress out over that? And I've had that happen to me many times.

- Yeah, I can see that. So, there's the advice, people, don't stress out when figuring out how to de-stress.

- Exactly.

- But it's true. I mean, you know, like, for some people, meditation is fantastic and amazing, and for other people, it's just, "No," like, it's just not going to work. And so, I would imagine it's the same with books.

- Well, when it comes to meditation specifically, the more analytical your mind is, the more difficult it is to meditate. So, I've tried for years, and I haven't given up, but to sit there and do nothing...you want me to sit there and do nothing? Is this a joke?

- Yeah. So, maybe, like, in that case...

- But if it works for you, that's why you have to explore different things. Some people may like running, other people may like walking, running may be nothing but stress for them. So, you have to try different things. If meditation works for you, great. If it just makes you fall asleep or frustrates you because you can't do it right or whatever other people think is right, then don't do meditation, do something else.

It has to be an organic journey, in that sense, because what sense does it make to stress out over reducing stress?

- Exactly. Excellent advice. Where can our listeners find you on the web?

- So, I do have my own website, it's drmarthagrajdek.com. So, that's D-R, marthagrajdek.com. And from there, they can connect to my social media, check out the online courses that I offer, and see any news that pertains to me.

- Awesome, thank you. That's all the time that we have for today. So, thanks so much to Dr. Grajdek for joining us. And thanks to our listeners for tuning in and for all that you do to keep your colleagues safe.

- Thank you, Mary, it's been a pleasure. ♪ [music] ♪ - Safety Labs is created by Slice, the only safety knife on the market with a finger-friendly blade. Find us at sliceproducts.com. Until next time, stay safe.

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